blamebrampton: 15th century woodcut of a hound (Default)
blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2008-10-15 10:28 pm

In which I argue both the government and the opposition

I was raised to be quite broadminded. So much so that I often find myself arguing against myself until I am nearly convinced of something I don't actually believe.  Or, as in this case, I actually DO believe both sides of the argument. Which brings us to today's topic:

ELITE ARCHIVES: GOOD FANDOM SERVICE OR SATAN'S BASTARD SPAWN?

By 'Elite Archives', I mean fic archives or communities that list fics that have been selected by a group of moderators, and which selections are made using particular criteria.

Some have invited authors, who are able to post any of their stories, others choose specific stories.

In the brief Pro Elite Archives case, they're a brilliant one-stop shop for good-quality fics in particular fandoms or pairings. You can be certain that anything posted there will be of a certain standard and that it will be, at a base level, *good*, regardless of whether or not it is to your specific taste.

These archives expose the work of excellent writers to a far broader audience than most could find on their own, and they also encourage writers whose work is given the stamp of approval. For people who are new to the fandom, they are a wonderful place to start, and for people within it they are a place to 'show our best'.

For the brief Anti case,  Elite  Archives focus on the best of fandom, according to *particular criteria*. Often this comes down to the personal tastes of a small group of people. While those tastes are almost certainly educated, and the mods that I know try to work against personal prejudices, it's impossible to not draw lines.

Drawing lines inevitably leads to hurt feelings, and accusations of bias against the mods, and of Princess Tantypantsdom against people who complain about being 'left out'. Then people who feel they have been hard done by strike back, and their friends take sides, and before you know it things look like one of those unfortunate Christmas dinners where you end up hiding in the stables.

To rebut the Pro case: how do you decide on that standard? There are only a small number of writers in fandom that I would describe as very good. There are more, but also a fairly small number, that I would describe as very bad. There are a lot who are average, and that's not an insult. Most of us are average writers at some point in our lives, just as we're average at sports we're learning. Then there is the group that makes the whole process incredibly difficult, the group of writers who are good, entertaining and competent, but not very good.

It's the difference between Trilby, which is a rollicking good novel, and Emma, which is brilliant. The difference between Disney's The Little Mermaid and Hans Christian Andersen's. In both cases the former is still enjoyable, but it's just not as good as the latter. However, people often enjoy the former more. Yet a truly Elite Archive would probably miss out on these. And so would its audience.

To rebut the Anti case: Elite is not a dirty word. Yes it's sad that some people might have their feelings hurt by not being included in a particular archive, but at the same time it acts as an incentive to learn about and improve their craft, while inclusion for inclusion's sake leads to a fandom that promotes mediocrity, and we have enough of that in politics these days.

In conclusion: 
Buggered if I know, you tell me what YOU think.

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[identity profile] meredyth-13.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
You just keep doing what you're doing, honey. You're in MY list of authors that make me happy.

*hugs*

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I post at an invitation only archive, and this apparently clambers right up the hooters of some. I can't see why. It's just about a group of friends posting at the same place.

I run a rec group and people sulk about not being on that. I can see why they would, but... write better. I've tried to deal with personal prejudice by having radically different people involved with their own tastes and preferences, and I see things turn up there that I wouldn;t piss on if they were on fire. Seems the best way of dealing with it though.

So it isn't a simple or easy answer. There are pluses and minuses. Recognising that is a good thing, especially if you're actually running an archive or a rec site.

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't care, I just want to slash Lindbergh. ;)

But seriously; that elite-writer stuff is largely subjective.

EDITED FOR TYPOS!
Edited 2008-10-15 17:31 (UTC)

[identity profile] aldehyde.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)
i agree with that. but at the same time, i think if mods are going to undertake the task of being responsible for an elite archive [or any type of archive at all], they should try their best to search for relevant material outside of their inner circle..

[identity profile] marguerite-26.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
well... considering I already said my blah, blah, blah a few comment up and I was just giving you a head nod it was pretty easy to be efficient in my wording. *g*

*head nods*

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:31 pm (UTC)(link)
each person is going to feel their own way about elitism and there will never be a way to please everyone.

Well said!

[identity profile] romaine24.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I loved your response and your analogy.

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure why I'm even posting about this. I wasn't even aware of elite groups until recently. It was a little late for me as I'd already been in fandom for a while. When I became of aware of them, it did surprise me.

I just want to play ball and I'm hoping that others will too. My goal, though, is not be asked to be in one of these groups, but to actually write better and to entertain not just myself but others.
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[identity profile] meredyth-13.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent goals, and if I may say so, you're definitely making excellent inroads in achieving them. I wouldn't stalk your writing if I didn't think so. :D

[identity profile] bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)
*blushes* Thanks, lovely!
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[identity profile] rickey-a.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, I completely agree with what you say. It's not easy or simple. It is subjective. In an ideal world we can say "each reader or writer will find the groups and rec lists that best help them find what they enjoy" - the sad part (at least for me) is when I see posts that say "I only read authors in _____ archive or rec'd by ________" or even worse, "if they are not on_____ then they're not any good." This limited type of thinking makes me cringe. Of course, there's nothing I can do about it. So I'm not upset or insulted if reccers or comm mods don't like my writing. Hey, that's their choice and opinion. All valid. All good. I'm just saddened when mob mentality takes over and legends are born. But you're right - there's no perfect world and no easy answer.

BTW I still am hypnotized whenever I see your icon;)

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:22 pm (UTC)(link)
MM, one of the things I've tried to do is point out stuff on the pit of voles that's worth a read. Yes there is pish on there, but there are unconsidered gems. It's not universally awful.

[identity profile] romaine24.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:33 pm (UTC)(link)


And your comment just made writing and posting stories worth it.

[identity profile] beatnikspinster.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Both? I love EAs when I was first reading H/D. But I discovered the fandom initially on ff.net, because it's huge and varied. That's my biggest problem with EAs: the more closed a site; the fewer readers are captured. FF.net is a MarySue clusterfuck. FF.net funnels tons of readers. FF.net funnels tons of readers, many of whom are MarySue clusterfucks.

Why can't fandom be more like amazon.com or bn.com? Or even better: like my gov't exists in theory, or Schoolhouse Rock cartoons. A three channel solution that's fronted by an editorial staff. The foundation/first channel would be an archive where anyone can upload their stories or art and receive feedback. The second channel would be peer review and promotion by rec lists, which would also be reviewed and/or rated. These two would be laid underneath an editorial channel that would be the primary focus.

The author and peer channel would be accessible from the sidebar of the gateway page, but the primary above-the-fold real estate would be the editorial channel. Editors would be hired for their taste, but also to insure the overall editorial voice covers a broad spectrum. An editor would have an area to state their criteria, and and rss feed. Someone who has an excellent rec list could be promoted into editorial.

There would be easy access to the critically lauded and/or popular. No one would be excluded, and would have a transparent structure to advance within.

Or am I overthinking this?

*sigh* I really want to start the perfect fandom tool.

[identity profile] calanthe-fics.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:43 pm (UTC)(link)
And, seriously, an h/d elite community that doesn't have calanthe_fics in it seems ridiculous.

I'm too cool for them. I know it; you know it. They couldn't stand the heat.

:D

There's only one comm I've ever been interested in joining, and to be frank, it'd have to pull its socks up and make itself interesting to tempt me to post outside my f-lock.

[identity profile] calanthe-fics.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
A timely topic given our discussion the other day.

:)

I have been giving this some thought in relation to Generation Hex, and I made some notes yesterday about how to go as far as possible in creating an elite comm or archive that doesn't look wankerish.

I also think it's important to ensure that there is a mechanism for people to apply. IMO, 'invitation only' is a bit of a power trip for the mods. Rather than being encouraging to authors, it's a clear warning message to stay away, and regardless of whether any of the existing invite only comms actually do recruit new members based on who their mates are (and their mates' mates ...) people BELIEVE it to be true, so it might as well be.

There are some wildly popular authors in fandom whose work leaves me unmoved. Some of them are what I would categorise as the 'Hermione Granger' author: people whose work is technically squeaky clean, but ultimately lacks any real soul. Other authors have bucket loads of soul, but they can't seem to learn enough technical skill to showcase their work in a positive light.It's swings and roundabouts, and what constitutes 'good' to me won't necessarily mean 'good' to you, and vice versa.

A set of guidance on what the mods are looking for in a fic is a must, imo. It gives people the opportunity to see, transparently, what the criteria for success is based on, meaning everyone has an equal opportunity to work towards inclusion, based on their skill, commitment, and perseverence. Hard as it is, some people will never be good enough, no matter how much they want it. We are all that person in relation to some aspect of our lives.

So, the list I started on to try and outline what I look for in a good fic is below:

Does the author demonstrate an above average understanding and usage of good grammar, spelling and punctuation (including Potterwords)?

Does the author demonstrate that they know the canon details of JKR's universe, and use them appropriately in their story?

Does the author write in a manner that is accessible to read? (Structure of sentences and paragraphs, plotting a coherent story.)

Does the author tell an original, engaging story?

Do the main characters ring true as male wizards of the chronological age at which they are written?

Are any featured canon-based characters recognisable, and if not, is there a well-plotted explanation as to why the person behaves differently?

Does the plot make sense?

Did I enjoy the story, and did I enjoy the experience of reading it?

That's as far as I got.

Edited, because I have no idea why this comment was not posted in the order I typed it ...
Edited 2008-10-15 19:02 (UTC)

[identity profile] romaine24.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
*blush* You are supposed to be in the hospital and not seeing my fangirling, Oh Cool One.


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[identity profile] thisgirl-is.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I dunno. Basically, call it what you like, it's a rec list like any other. Maybe a slightly more prestigious one. It's a small group of people saying, "This is really good", much like an individual saying, "This is really good". Therefore a useful place to find good fic, if your tastes happen to be in tune with those of the reccer.

Does anyone really take these things so seriously as to start a big Wank over (I was about to say "being excluded", but that's not technically accurate here) not being included. It's not like someone is saying. "These fics are the best EVAR and everything else sucks, yes I'm looking at you". I think that I would lose a lot of respect for someone who had a tantrum over not getting their fic recced by, well by who really? Some random fandomers. Why would their opinion be more valid than anyone else's?

Did that make any sense?

In conclusion, I'm good with them for their good points, and am not too fussed about their "bad" points, which sound a little bit like deciding that no one actually wins (and therefore nobody loses) in school sports because everyone is a winner for playing.
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[identity profile] thisgirl-is.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Awww, dammit. Now I wish I had read the comments before replying. It just took me three paragraphs to say this.
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[identity profile] thisgirl-is.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
*joins your minority*

I despised the character so very deeply that I just gave up on the book, which I very rarely do. Emma and Vanity Fair. Ghhhh! *shudders*

[identity profile] jamie2109.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
The whole issue is subjective. Quality is subjective as is taste on both sides. I've been invited to join a couple over the years and while it's nice to be invited, I personally think the days of elite archives being a good indication of the fandom at large is gone. These archives might hold classics (another subjective term) - old ones and ones that will become classics - but in this climate those stories will also be posted/archived in places that have a much wider reader base, if only for exposure.

And I don't care who runs these archives, they're still self proclaimed 'elite'. It's not a mantle placed upon them by a majority vote of every single person in fandom. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just making an observation. I can see where writers might want to be considered 'good enough' to be invited, though, and this is where I appreciate [livejournal.com profile] meredyth's opinion on competition. These archives, as long as they have guidelines so that a writer can aspire to archive the levels of quality required by that archive, become a goal worth striving for if you want the sort of recognition they're offering. But at some point, it has to be acknowledged that not everyone has the skill level required by that archive. Subjective or not, it's their sandpit and if you want in, you have to play by their rules.

I have to admit that I really appreciate having been invited to a few over the years. I know my name as an author is kind of on the fringes and I don't immediately come to mind when asked about favourite authors. I have flashes of brilliance and the rest is pretty average, except some bits where it's really ordinary, so for me it is hugely flattering to be invited.

Which all leaves me sitting quite firmly on the fence right beside you. Though the boobs make me sway towards thinking they're a good thing.

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 10:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Abso-fucking-lutely! :)

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 10:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Does the plot make sense?

Oh dear, looks like I won't be invited! ;D

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think the vast majority of people are so limited in their reading, thankfully. And those guys are really missing out on worthwhile fics.

This is what I like about anon fests: it levels the playing field, and helps readers discover fics/authors they otherwise wouldn't have read.

[identity profile] frantic-mice.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Er. hehehe well. I'd argue that the "problemo" with these archives is that peeps think, woah, these fics are AT THE VERY LEAST GOOD by liek these kinda objective standards. But RLY? These standards are just boxes, crappy hobbo box fortresses, that are prolly defended RLY RLY intellectually and WELL. So when I look at a so-called Elite archive I go a bit tilty headed, because IMO it's not about hao good these writers are but about the taste of this Archive mod or mods. The mod is liek, MY TASTE LET ME SHOW YOU IT BECAUSE YOU CARE. People might, people might not, but it doesn't mean quite as much as people think it means. Liek mah stupido crackrevs are for me, they are me enjoying this and saying MY ENJOYMENT LET ME SHOW YOU IT BECAUSE YOU CARE. And some peeps dun care for it, because yes, why should they? BUT!! Do you see what I'm sayin?

Congrats thou to everyone who gets invited to these comms and archives because it's nice to be appreciated for your work. GAWD KNOES hao much I treasure when my Voldieboss gives me a crum. :))))))))

♥ ♥

I SHOULD TOTES READ OTHER PEEPS COMMENTAGE!

[identity profile] frantic-mice.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I was all hesitant and scuuuuuuuuuuured about saying this and up there SAMETHINGER much moar forcefully and briefness. *headdesk*

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