blamebrampton: 15th century woodcut of a hound (Default)
blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2008-10-15 10:28 pm

In which I argue both the government and the opposition

I was raised to be quite broadminded. So much so that I often find myself arguing against myself until I am nearly convinced of something I don't actually believe.  Or, as in this case, I actually DO believe both sides of the argument. Which brings us to today's topic:

ELITE ARCHIVES: GOOD FANDOM SERVICE OR SATAN'S BASTARD SPAWN?

By 'Elite Archives', I mean fic archives or communities that list fics that have been selected by a group of moderators, and which selections are made using particular criteria.

Some have invited authors, who are able to post any of their stories, others choose specific stories.

In the brief Pro Elite Archives case, they're a brilliant one-stop shop for good-quality fics in particular fandoms or pairings. You can be certain that anything posted there will be of a certain standard and that it will be, at a base level, *good*, regardless of whether or not it is to your specific taste.

These archives expose the work of excellent writers to a far broader audience than most could find on their own, and they also encourage writers whose work is given the stamp of approval. For people who are new to the fandom, they are a wonderful place to start, and for people within it they are a place to 'show our best'.

For the brief Anti case,  Elite  Archives focus on the best of fandom, according to *particular criteria*. Often this comes down to the personal tastes of a small group of people. While those tastes are almost certainly educated, and the mods that I know try to work against personal prejudices, it's impossible to not draw lines.

Drawing lines inevitably leads to hurt feelings, and accusations of bias against the mods, and of Princess Tantypantsdom against people who complain about being 'left out'. Then people who feel they have been hard done by strike back, and their friends take sides, and before you know it things look like one of those unfortunate Christmas dinners where you end up hiding in the stables.

To rebut the Pro case: how do you decide on that standard? There are only a small number of writers in fandom that I would describe as very good. There are more, but also a fairly small number, that I would describe as very bad. There are a lot who are average, and that's not an insult. Most of us are average writers at some point in our lives, just as we're average at sports we're learning. Then there is the group that makes the whole process incredibly difficult, the group of writers who are good, entertaining and competent, but not very good.

It's the difference between Trilby, which is a rollicking good novel, and Emma, which is brilliant. The difference between Disney's The Little Mermaid and Hans Christian Andersen's. In both cases the former is still enjoyable, but it's just not as good as the latter. However, people often enjoy the former more. Yet a truly Elite Archive would probably miss out on these. And so would its audience.

To rebut the Anti case: Elite is not a dirty word. Yes it's sad that some people might have their feelings hurt by not being included in a particular archive, but at the same time it acts as an incentive to learn about and improve their craft, while inclusion for inclusion's sake leads to a fandom that promotes mediocrity, and we have enough of that in politics these days.

In conclusion: 
Buggered if I know, you tell me what YOU think.

[identity profile] frantic-mice.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:33 pm (UTC)(link)
YOU SHOULD TOTES START THAT SHIT UP!

Cept where would I be? I KNOE!! I could be on at 4 in the mo'!! Only drug addicts and insomniacs would watch me. :DDDDDDDD

[identity profile] bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
My first reaction was "Wow! Awesome idea!"

My second reaction was "Dude, that's too much work."

Oh laziness! lol

[identity profile] beatnikspinster.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm tempted. Only right now is ASS for finding venture capital, and I don't have the programming skills to dev it myself. So, research phase then. :)

[identity profile] beatnikspinster.livejournal.com 2008-10-15 11:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, the real nut to crack is profitability. Because it would be a lot of work, of many people. It would be a business venture. Which means you need a profit source to pay staff for it to exist. And right now is awful to try and dig up VC, even with a revenue plan and prototype.

*sigh* I need to do more thinking. And learn some programming languages. :P

[identity profile] mabonwitch.livejournal.com 2008-10-16 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
Mmmm, hard one. On the one hand, I do weigh the opinions certain folks who rec work, and have read invite-only archives. On the other hand, I also cruise fanfiction.net, and have found stories ther that I enjoy.

Personally, I like the Emmas and the Trilbys, and have a pretty good sense of how to get each. I also save stories on my desktop and make notes in a master file about things I want to know before going back to read it. I give stories a porn-prose-plot rating as well as a summary noting what I found interesting. I think literature- elite stories- have not only good plot, but a superior level of writing, so if I'm looking for "Emma", I look for that high prose rating.

Its not a good/bad thing for me, its just a matter of what I'm in the mood for.

bare_me
arobynsung: (ravenclaw flower)

Half & Half

[personal profile] arobynsung 2008-10-16 02:00 am (UTC)(link)
I think that's why there are both kinds of posting services available. I think that if you submit your work to an "Elite Archive" be aware that you are being judged by a standard based on the opinion of the mods and not as a public appeal issue. If you'd prefer not to be selected against, there are many communities and archives that are non-mod and are for developing writers, just know that you are in good and bad company.
I personally go to elite archives when I'm in the mood for something really good, complex, and fascinating. When I'm just craving fanfiction, I can rake through non-mod archives and a lot of the times find a gem thrown in there.
As long as both avenues are available options, the issue isn't as much of a big deal as stung authors may make it out to be.

followup w/ inquiry...

[identity profile] beatnikspinster.livejournal.com 2008-10-16 02:57 am (UTC)(link)
Most of the above is floating about in generalized web 2.0 sites. So, what's missing and misfiring? Email me. I'm seriously researching this, but moving serious discussion of this onto a private space henceforth. ;)

[identity profile] snottygrrl.livejournal.com 2008-10-16 07:01 am (UTC)(link)
and before you know it things look like one of those unfortunate Christmas dinners where you end up hiding in the stables.

o.0

you go to christmas dinners that have stables involved? i'm definitely coming your way this yr :D

and being one of those that has watched most of my h/d writing friends get asked to be in one of the 'elite' groups and never been deemed worthy myself, i'm inclined to think they kind of suck (the groups, not the writers). but that's just me
Edited 2008-10-16 07:02 (UTC)

[identity profile] animeartistjo.livejournal.com 2008-10-16 09:10 am (UTC)(link)
I would just like a site with literate authors, thank you. Skyhawke's pretty good as new members need to be referred by pre-existing ones, but some poor writers still leak through. Thing is, though, those writers weaker in the technical aspect of writing usually have some very intriguing plotlines/character portrayals/ideas/etc. I still consider the technical part more important though--I just started a fic that began with four sentence fragments and didn't bother to read more, despite the intriguing summary. It's extremely difficult to read a poorly written fic, no matter how interesting the plot is.

Essentially, excusing my personal ranting, I agree with most everyone's feelings of a written sort of definition of what X elite archive's criteria for "elite" fiction is.

[identity profile] roedhunt.livejournal.com 2008-10-18 09:39 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry to butt in - I came here from a link of a link of a link.

I've read the all the comments and noticed you only responded to one. I'm curious - are you just wanting to hear other's opinions and that's as far as it goes? I'm not trying to be a bitch, but usually when people post something like this, they respond back with something - whether it be "I agree or disagree".

I have an opinion as well, but I'm not going to voice it if it only will be a statement.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-18 09:45 am (UTC)(link)
I have a head cold and a festival fic due, so I've had to hold off responding. Since the responses are all from people on my flist, they're used to the fact that I sometimes have a few days when I can't reply, as I work as a freelancer and occasionally disappear for days at a time ;-)

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Oi you leave Hermione alone. Poor thing.

More seriously, though, these look like objective criteria, but it still begs the question about what is a good story.

Lots of people confuse 'I don't like that' with 'this is shit' but sometimes the reason you don't like it is because it's shit.

Believability of characterisation is just this huge minefield.


[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I have just enough brains to say 'Yes, that's the standard hell of an editor's life' at this point. It's one of the reasons that when I had more to do with books, I was always grateful for the fact that titles were pooled among readers, and that if something really wasn't your cup of tea, you could pass with no foul.

I think that's why you need to have a decent pool of mods if an elite archive is to have any hope, and liked one of the suggestions elsewhere here that said mods declare biases, it would make it handy to know before following their recs.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Nods

I think everyone knows mine by now. Snerfles. Though there are some odd ones. I won't read fic with Draco smoking. It annoys the snot out of me.

I'm trying to book tickets for our sojourn. This is not going well. I thought the extra day would help.

Next time pick somewhere more convenient. Like bleeding Azerbaijan.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I had planned to come to you, but my mother has all my money. The rotter.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Next time then.

I reckon the idea that you need to check in two hours before a flight is bollocks. I've spent all my previous trips hanging round doing sod all. Ah well if I miss my plane out I'll just get another one the next day. I'm a spendthrift. Fuck it. I'm not happy about turning up at the airport at 11pm, mind, but it's that or three the next day.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 02:52 pm (UTC)(link)
90 minutes seems more than adequate, less if you're all carry-on. We can have something liquid and a sandwich waiting for you when you get in, if you like.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 03:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I shall have to sneak out of work early, a bit, maybe. I'm due into Florence at 11pm on the 12th.

I shall just expect a rescue mission if there are no taxis. And I shall have to prepare a little speech to order one.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Desidero un taxi, per piacere.

Albergo Pendini, per favore. Via Strozzi due (2). Grazie.

We will come and rescue you if needs be! And don't forget to organise a late book in.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 03:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Takes notes

I'm still trying to arrange rooms. Did you manage to book online?

[identity profile] calanthe-fics.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with you. I don't know what the answer is, to be honest. I just think that being as transparent as possible, and having a mechanism where everyone can submit work against the criteria, goes some way to removing the wank factor.

I think what we've got in our favour is that the group of mods isn't exactly a group of friends. Other than Brammers and me, the rest of us happen to be connected via Hex, and not because we've gravitated towards each other as like-minded friends. Between us we have a very broad reading interest, and I'm banking on that breadth to stand us in good stead.

But those who get turned down will still wank about it - it's human nature to feel pained about any rejection.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2008-10-19 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh rule the place with an iron hand, and be all wanky and stuff. You're going to be asccused of it. You may as well do it. ;-)

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-20 01:06 pm (UTC)(link)
YES! Exactly! And yet at the same time, there's a place for Hello Kitty in the world and more people will like that silly little cartoon than will ever like someone like Egon Schiele, yet there is *more* in the works of those Modernists than there could ever be in Manga.

I am now thinking that it's worth distinguishing between 'popular' and 'best'.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2008-10-20 01:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, that's a good rule. Will people get enough value from such a comm or archive that it's worth the cranky pantsness? I think that your criterion of a well crafted reason as to why a story is thought 'elite' is an excellent piece of value-adding.

[identity profile] leochi.livejournal.com 2008-10-20 01:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, absolutely!

Some art/literature/whatever brains and inspiration produce are made for quick consumption - I'd call them brain, or rather sentiment fastfood. They satisfy the inner sweet tooth that demands sugar, porn, clichés, superficial beauty. You can find all that e.g. in Manga or in all those blockbusters.

"Real" art suggests you activate your brain and look beyond the obvious. That's not that easy and 90% of the people prefer not to strain themselves too much. Better go watch "Star Wars" or "Buffy" or something of the kind than "The Hours".

(I'm so bad at expressing myself properly in English; I guess I'm stumbling over my own words. But I reckon you know what I mean. :-))

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