blamebrampton: 15th century woodcut of a hound (Default)
blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2009-03-12 10:50 pm

ARGH! Vaccine rant, and I do mean rant.

It's my own fault for watching the news on the trashy commercial TV channel.

The story began reasonably enough. It told the tragic tale of a very young baby who has just died of whooping cough up in Lismore, near the idiot hippie capital of Australia. The child was too young to be immunised, and because the level of immunisation in the area is so low, she was infected by an older child whose parents had not kept his or her shots up. Not only was that original child made very ill, just like the other 3300 Australian whooping cough cases in the first two months of this year, it has killed four-week-old Dana.

Dana's parents wanted her vaccinated, but she was too young.

Up to this point the news story was quite scientifically accurate. But after clearly outlining the facts, it went on to say 'Tell that to parents like Wayne Bennet whose son suffered an adverse reaction to the diptheria vaccine, which caused brain damage.'

To which I say ... hold on a minute, sunshine.

Now you will find lots of pages on the internet telling you that the diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, (DPT) vaccine causes brain damage, just as you will find many telling you the MMR vaccine causes autism.

Diphtheria is a highly contagious disease that kills 4-10% of people who contract it and causes severe chronic illness in many others. Tetanus and whooping cough you probably know about. In the 1970s, a UK study suggested that one in 310,000 children would have a serious reaction to the DPT vaccine, and as one of the children who would have contributed to those statistics, I have to say that it's what I consider an acceptable risk. However, subsequent studies and reinterpretation of the original data all came to the same conclusion. There was in fact NO PROVEN SERIOUS RISK. Mild rashes, nausea and the very rare cases of anaphylaxis which can occur with ANY substance and which are best off occurring in a doctor's surgery or with a trained nurse armed with adrenalin standing beside you were the only reactions shown by the data.

Wayne Bennett is a famous football coach. His son suffered seizures after his DPT vaccination. He believes that it was causal. It is possible that it was. People have all sorts of strange and unique allergic reactions. It's also possible that it was a coincidence and another factor caused the seizures at a close time to the vaccine, the boy's sister has serious genetic issues and it may just have been that his were under the radar until that day, or even that the baby had been suffering smaller seizures previously that had gone un-noticed until his system was challenged by the vaccine, which led to a larger physiological response. It is a very sad event, and the family have been great, but it is a specific and individual case.

To give this single case the same weight as the entire DPT vaccination programme, which has not only delivered no proven risk of serious reaction caused by vaccine, but also demonstrably prevented hundreds of thousands of cases of diseases that have definite death rates -- quite high ones in the case of diphtheria ... it goes beyond bad journalism to being overtly unethical.

You've almost certainly heard all about the MMR--autism link, it was massively reported when first mooted. What has been less reported is that the doctor who proposed the link has been found guilty of falsifying his data. Now to begin with, the whole thing was idiot pseudo science, since the sample size was 12. If you cherry pick your sample size of 12, you can 'prove' most things. After the publication of his 'reasearch', the vaccination rates in the UK fell dramatically, destroying herd immunity. This now means that British children who cannot be vaccinated for legitimate reasons, including HIV, childhood cancer or other illnesses, are at real risk from their peers, because their parents are idiots.

When I was a young lass in the 60s and 70s, I knew one girl who died of measles and another who was severely disabled thanks to her mother's rubella. That was in England. When I travelled with dad, I met many families in India, Kenya and Tanzania who had members who had died of measles. It is not an insignificant nor trifling disease, nor is mumps or rubella.

Thanks to the vaccine, measles death rates have plumetted. In 2000, according to the CDC, 750,000 people died of measles. In 2007, with the disease wiped out in many countries, 197,000 people died of it. However, in the UK, where the idiot falsifying doctor first published, measles infection rates climbed more than 30% in 2007, and about the same amount in 2008. I do not think there have yet been any deaths, but serious complications including mental retardation are known consequences of measles itself.

Now I do not pretend that vaccines are all sunshine and roses. They hurt, they cost, and in some people, like me, they leave you feeling nauseated or headachey for days (as do most drugs, I am a big girl's blouse, as they say).

And if you are taking the rabies vaccine, there actually IS a risk of mental retardation and other brain problems because of the vaccine's ingredients. However, you only take this if you have been bitten by a rabid animal, and since you WILL DIE of rabies, most people choose to accept the risk.

Some of you may know about Jade Goody, the formerly ridiculous now tragic UK reality TV creation who is currently dying of cervical cancer. I do not have her medical records, but am going to stride out on a limb and say that her cancer was most likely caused by HPV. This virus  is the cause of 70% of cervical cancers, and the overwhelming majority of those in the young. There is a vaccine, Gardasil, that has been around for several years. In Australia, it is given free to all young women.

There have been any number of news stories stating that schoolgirls have suffered adverse reactions to Gardisil. Tell us your stories! many say. And it is true to an extent. In the years since the vaccines began there have been over 1000 Australian girls who have suffered adverse reactions. Headaches, rashes at the injection site, dizziness, nausea ... 12 cases of anaphylaxis, which were all dealt with by trained staff administering the vaccine. (That is many times smaller than the number of cases of anaphylaxis caused by bees, peanuts and shellfish, by the way.)

There have been over 3.7 million doses of Gardasil administered here. All of these women have drastically slashed the likelihood they will end up like Jade Goody. Or the over 200 Australian women who die each year of cervical cancer.

It would be great if none of those girls ever felt sick, but the possibility of a headache and nausea -- even if it persisted for weeks as some anecdotal cases have alleged (which may or may not actually have been caused by Gardasil, I crashed with glandular fever after my rubella vaccination, this was a coincidence) -- is nothing compared to the possibility of an early painful death. 

For journalists to pretend that they are providing a 'balanced' report by slipping notes such as the Wayne Bennett comment into stories on vaccination infuriates me. But my fury is nothing.

That sort of thinking killed Dana. She was only four weeks old.

drgaellon: William Mosely as Peter Pevensie, Ben Barnes as Caspian X (Caspian Peter)

Re: I wish everyone's rant is just like yours <3

[personal profile] drgaellon 2009-03-13 03:34 am (UTC)(link)
And very pretty he is, too.

Why do I feel so much pervier having a thing for Skandar than I ever did for DanRad?
ext_7717: Lilian heart (Skandar close-up)

Re: I wish everyone's rant is just like yours <3

[identity profile] lilian-cho.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Because he radiates an aura of innocence that's absent in DanRad?
DanRad's aura = BZUH? I'm pretty but not quite all there.
Skandar's aura = Come. Ravish me. *puppy eyes*

I didn't have inappropriate thoughts about Skandar Edmund Skandar until Prince Caspian. I blame the IMMINENT INEVITABLE Edmund/Caspian pairing.
At least I'm not reading Skandar Keynes/Ben Barnes yet?

[identity profile] shu-shu-sleeps.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 06:07 am (UTC)(link)
Its horrific to think about the damage 'news-tainment' can do to our health. Did they mention that significant work has been done on the vaccines over the past ten years - making them even safer and more effective? Hmm - thought not....
I got whooping cough as an adult a few years ago because the old vaccine with which I was vaccinated ceased to be effective - I probably caught it from a child who hadn't been vaccinated - its rampant just over the border - either that or from someone at work who decided it was better to 'struggle on through' whatever plague they decided not to see a doctor about because hell you can't take time off if you're sick!
Vaccination saves lives. Poor little Dana had hers stolen.

hi, you don't know me, but I was linked here

[identity profile] lastrega.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 07:09 am (UTC)(link)
I want to ask each and every one of these anti-vaccine idiots if, when their child develops a serious illness, they use medications, pain relief/antibiotics/etc? Do they not realise how dangerous those things are? Antibiotics kill people (not a lot of people, but certainly more than vaccines), but you can bet that most of these anti-vaccine morons are the same people running to the doctor demanding antibiotics for a cold.

I'm sorry (not very) if being called an idiot or a bad parent makes anti-vaccine nutters feel bad, but sometimes people need to feel bad to change their behaviour. Because if you don't vaccinate your children (provided they can be vaccinated) you are, in fact, a bad parent and an idiot.

[identity profile] annes-stuff.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 07:53 am (UTC)(link)
As a child I remember my mother not letting use get a Rubella vaccination as she thought they were dangerous. I eventually got it at 15 years of age when she took me to the doctors for another illness. While there the doctor noticed that I hadn't had the vaccination and asked my mother why. She told him, he was not impressed. He then proceeded to give her a 10 minute lecture as to what could happen if I contracted Rubella if I got pregnant later in life. I got the vaccinations that day. She has since changed her mind.

[identity profile] bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
First, yes, I understand this. My point was that as a parent, when you're TRYING to research and make informed decisions, it can be very confusing. There is a lot of contradictory information out there. And established institutions need time and clear evidence before they change their stand, which makes sense, but it means that there IS information out there about possible harm that won't be officially backed for a while. And once you know that, it can be even more difficult to sift through all the research and figure out what the "truth" is. My wasn't a "don't vaccinate!!" warcry, it was an expression of sympathy for parents who are struggling to make sense of a confusing topic.

Second, I find the tone of your comment incredibly condescending. We don't know each other. There's no need to talk to me like I'm stupid.

[identity profile] schemingreader.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
There are good reasons that people are afraid of the diptheria-pertussis-tetanus vaccine, but many believe that they not valid reasons anymore. The old DPT vaccine had whole cell pertussis, and there were a lot of bad reactions to it. I had heard about these reactions and was afraid to give the vaccine to my kid. My doctor explained, as this Wikipedia article details, that the vaccine had been changed and now uses a broken-up version of the pertussis. (My pediatrician actually explained this incorrectly, which is interesting--I thought the old DTP was actually a live vaccine, but it wasn't. I wonder if he dumbed it down for me a little? Oh well.) There were a lot of reactions to the old DTP--my pediatrician admitted to seeing them in his practice. (Mainly kids got some symptoms of pertussis.) It was not clear whether the scary reaction, brain damage, that seemed to be correlated with the shot, was really caused by DTP.

In the end I decided to go for the jab, that between the fact that the vaccine had been changed and how risky it was for a baby to get whooping cough, it was the best bet.

You'll also note from the article that another vaccine is given as a booster, one with a smaller concentration of the weakened bacterial toxins. In developing countries that can't afford the safer shot, they still give the old DTP, because it's cheaper. (I don't know how to think about that cost-benefit analysis. I guess if you are thinking about populations as a whole and not individuals, it makes sense.)

Pertussis is apparently still present in populations with near-universal vaccination, like Canada's. I'm guessing this is because the vaccines are only effective for a few years, and that people can get the illness when they are between boosters. So as terrible as this story is, it's not clear to me that it couldn't have happened if the older child's parents vaccinated. Here's more wiki on that piece.

[identity profile] daybreaq.livejournal.com 2009-03-13 08:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I note, even in replying to this thread, there are a number of people who kinda say, "Yeah, I get what you are saying, but I've got to respect the parents who do their research (i.e. Read all the quack articles; listen to their quack "doctors/psychologists.") and decide not to vaccinate." I understand the impulse; but somehow they missed the point that Dana died because of *other* kids' parents choices. Vaccination does not just protect individual children; it protects the community as a whole.

I think I've found an analogy that is not perfect since, in my case, there is not real danger to other children if a parent decides to be an idiot; but in other ways, I think it might help these people see the light a little better.

Let's say a paper gets published where the researcher claims he has found a link between teen suicide and having been placed in a car seat as a toddler. The claim states that restraining a young child when he doesn't wish to be restrained causes irreparable harm to the child's psyche that will lead to increased suicidal tendencies. The researcher claims he has numbers to prove children who cry and protest be placed in a car seat but were placed in them anyway grow up to be sullen teens who slit their wrists. The recommendation is, if your two year old makes any sort of protest about being placed in a car seat, you must allow that child to sit unrestrained for the sake of his future mental health.

This get widely reported. There are heart wrenching interviews with parents of teens who have committed suicide. "Yes, Tommy hated his car seat! He would cry that he wanted to sit up front with Mommy! And I never let him. I believed the experts who said this was best for my child. I did this to him. Nobody told me how that car seat was torture for him. Now he's dead at fifteen because I didn't listen to his needs!" Celebrity relatives of teen who have committed suicide sprout up claiming "Yes, it was the car seat that caused this!"

Fairly soon after, it is revealed that the original paper that linked car seat restraint to suicide was total nonsense not based on any good scientific method. And there's this major lawsuit against the car seat manufacturers and the plantiffs lose spectacularly. The court decides: there is absolutely no link established between Car seat restraint and increased suicidal tendencies. But the web sites remain, as do the media reporting still ponders, "Well, you never know," and there are TV shows where characters are shown losing their children to the dreaded car seat ... and the celebrities refuse to shut up about their justified cause ... after all, it's their child: no one else knows better. And babies get their heads smashed into windshields at increasing numbers.

So, if this is your world, do you then respect the parents who do their research and decide it's best not to place their child in a car seat?

[identity profile] emerald-dragon8.livejournal.com 2009-03-14 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
ILU. You know that, right? You are my voice of reason.

For me, it all comes down to research. Parents shouldn't stumble blindly into giving their children injections, nor should they subscribe to the pointless and idiotic reporting of people like those mentioned who call themselves journalists. They should know what is being given to their children, not think that they know best because they have a "feeling". I don't believe it's fair to call people stupid because they're concerned about their child's health, but when they blindly accept information, then it reaches the point of stupidity.

My parents looked into all my vaccines, including (and I was involved in this one too) my recent gardisil. They made informed decisions, and chose to vaccinate me. Apart from being overweight (which I am working on - I've lost a noticeable amount of weight in the past month), I am a very healthy person. I have never had any serious health problems. The only two times I've been to a hospital were for a broken arm and a tiger tooth (in case you're unfamiliar with the term tiger tooth - it's basically just a tooth which is up near your nose, that needs to be pulled down. Most people don't know what they are unless they have had one or know someone who has).

Sorry I rambled and it's currently 2.30am so I'm sorry if I'm not making sense...

[identity profile] emerald-dragon8.livejournal.com 2009-03-14 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi! I just posted below you about parents who research, and I have to say that I think it's a good thing if they do it PROPERLY - NOT the quacks, but proper research. I agree with you about vaccination (that it protects the community) and I really think that the issue boils down to making sure that PROPER research is available so that these parents who do choose not to vaccinate might think twice before they make their decision.

Sorry to be random! I just thought I would clear my opinion up. :)

(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
nwfairy,

it depends on what traits the disease is selecting for. if you could show me a disease that killed stupid people, i might be tempted. if you had one that only kind, compassionate people who could carry a tune, could survive, i'd be very, very tempted. some days when i take my kids to music lessons, i might settle for just the last trait. but disease, that weeds out the old and the sick, in the natural environment? that's not a breeding system i want to live with. measles, rubella, whooping cough is random death to the best and the brightest, or the congenitally clueless. it takes out beethoven and the tone deaf, too.

a vaccine isn't replacing your immune system. it isn't antibiotics that kill the germs for you. it stimulates your immune system to work, so that it is prepared to kill the invader if it ever encounters it.

(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 04:13 pm (UTC)(link)
coming back with my ethics turned on. i was joking about the weeding out of the tone deaf, and i'm sorry if it was offensive. i'm just wishing my kids didn't inherit my own un-musical gene. but the idea of natural selection in this discussion is upsetting. if 175,000 children die of measles on the african continent, it's very sad. if 175,000 children died of measles on the north american continent, it would be an international crisis of epic proportions.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-03-15 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I am miles behind in answering comments on this post because I have been beta-ing all weekend, but I wanted to comment on this.

I know that you're being a little ironic there, but it is, sadly, the way that many people think. And, in further irony, it may one day be the case that it is more likely there will be a pandemic of measles in North America than in Africa. Because in Africa, people line up for vaccines and are very happy to do so.

They do this even though, historically, the risk has been higher for them. Given the low level of funding that was available for vaccinations in Africa, I never actually found it outrageous that people used vaccines that were considered 'not good enough' for the US.

The reason for this is simple: the tiny number of people who have serious reactions to the 'bad' vaccine is not only tiny in itself, but absolutely not with thinking about when you compare it to the number of children who will become severely ill or die of the diseases they are being vaccinated against.

It's exactly analogous to the rations that are handed out at aid camps. They are not great food, but they are brilliant when compared to no food and starvtion.

Now I formed these views back in the 1970s when it was just the truth of life in most of sub-Saharan Africa. Since then, some countries have benefited hugely from the work of Medecins sans Frontieres and the Gates Foundation and there has even been a serious investment of good quality drugs by some big pharmaceutical companies, so the discrepancies are far smaller.

And as to your original comment, you're quite right. Viruses and bacteria take down the strong and the weak alike. Losing vaccination is a terrible way to enforce eugenics. And you're also right that 'selective' breeding is a terrible way to build a better society. No one would choose to breed Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein or Marie Curie, but imagine life without them.

(Anonymous) 2009-03-15 09:00 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, you are right. i should have put my communications hat on as well as my ethics one. what i meant to say is that it's wrong that the death of a child on one continent should be less significant than the death of child on another continent.

and i'll add that i don't understand why people who wouldn't dream of driving their child around the block without a car seat, will think that they can protect them from contagion just by being "extra careful."

[identity profile] norton-gale.livejournal.com 2009-03-16 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
My husband is always all over me for using anecdotal evidence of this and that friend. ;)

[identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com 2009-03-16 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
*hugs*

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