blamebrampton | A case in point ...

A case in point ...

So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.

Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.

And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.

I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...

Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

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Inamac and I always recommend Watching the English to people moving to this country. It is generally correct.

I'm too Australian to be a proper Brit-picker, but if you are going to use a game of cricket to show that your story is set in England, make sure you know the difference between cricket and baseball.

Any difference, really. Because they are actually not very much alike. I was going to write a long rant about this, but since I did so at the time I read the story - which was, in fact, a published novel, so one might have hoped the editor or publisher would have cared enough to notice the problems even if the author didn't - I figured I might as well link to that.

It still annoys me, though.

I didn't read it, BB. The conversation was starting to get stressful and exhausting for me, so I bowed out. I think we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject.

I appreciate the apology and apologise myself for my own expression of temper and poor manners.

You did -- it was my second reply to you when I shouted and arghed. I should have taken myself outside for a smacking then come back and tried again rather than pressing send. *Shakes hands and passes tea/coffee/beverage of choice.*

Being American, I never believe that honest expressions of emotion are something for which one must apologise. ;)

*chooses giant non-fat no foam latte with strawberry syrup*

*offers you a muffin*

*Buys it for you, but is unable to resist minor giggle*

You're right to be annoyed. Published works are much worse than fanfic in my opinion, as most come attached to a budget which is meant to be used in part to edit them. And the standard of expectation is higher -- people are taught at school to read books and believe them, whereas most people expect the internet to have higher general bilge factor.

Let us not speak of newspapers, magazines and documentaries, or I will need to have a little cry.

Well I would consider the fact that politics in Europe are significantly to the left of US politics to be an asset of culture. Our relationship to the state is different. Our attitude to the death penalty. Carrying guns. And that says as much about who we are as people as what we eat.

There is significant variation in the UK and France in what we eat as compared to each other and within our countries but there is still a national culture. The English do talk about the weather a lot. The French do strike a lot.

And the Americans writing the virginity fics may be young and stupid but if young and stupid brits don't write it then it's still an American thing. It doesn't mean all Americans are like that but it does mean some or a lot are, depending. Not all Americans carry guns and some brits do but it's still true that Americans overall have a gun culture and we don't because we don't have discussions about the right to bear arms. It's not important to us as a whole and we don't have political discussions about it.

However, I do now know that some brits wear pants beneath their pajamas. Still an odd thing to do but it's not part of a cultural divide.

Yes, exactly - the author is being *paid* to write, her editors are being *paid* to edit, and how long would it seriously take to look up Wikipedia and find out that cricket is divided into innings', and only two batsmen are out on the field at once?

That book still annoys me when I think about it. Sheer lazy writing.

I actually did a quick Google search to make sure that the writer hadn't been led astray by some bastard on the internet. No such excuse!

Actually, the shocking thing was that Mr Obama in part was agreeing with me - and Delingpole. Not the other way 'round at all.

And m'dear, I did see the underlying thread. Everyone involved who expected that anyone who was outraged would seek to engage one in debate before making assumptions they knew what one meant ... well, just you wait in that disused mineshaft with Amiel the pet toad whilst waiting for Mr Shuttleworth to shout the news down the shaft to you.

Edited 2011-01-09 14:45 (UTC)

Yeah I don't see it. I'm not familiar with some of these writers you've mentioned, but from what I've read (a sampling of some popular authors), I don't see that melodramatic "oh my god you slept w/my twin sister at our wedding" - HUGE slap - cue music da da da - fade to commercial. But I don't read romance as a genre, so perhaps it's more in that genre. Dunno.

What I do see is the influence of movies. Sometimes books feel like they're edited with the pace and feel of what will translate nicely into a 2hr film, sometimes it's just scenes that you can practically visualize with the camera cuts and all. I'm not sure if that's something deliberate by the author (to get the book made into a movie) or subconscious because movies are such a pervasive part of our lives. Maybe it's just us as readers being so entrenched in visual entertainment that sometimes we visualize in that way as we read. Not sure. But I definitely think it's not just an American trend.

JKR has done it to me a number of times. As an example, the opening chapter of DH feels that way. Dark room of Death Eaters around a table. Camera pans around the room then upward to reveal- Muggle Studies teacher. Dark speech by Voldy. AK - cue snake. "Dinner, Nagini." Snake attacks- quick cut to black. So yeah, when I saw it in film, it sort of confirmed how well that scene was written to translate to film. Could be completely subconscious because 5 movies were made by the time she was writing DH and yes, I'd seen 5 movies when I went to read DH. But I have to point out the obvious line of Molly's "not my daughter, you bitch" - if that wasn't written for the move, I don't know what else it could've been.

So nope, I don't see that trend you're talking about, but I think my image of soap opera melodrama may not quite match yours.

Well said (and pretty scary that there actually are people like in The Handmaid's Tale!). I think I've been cloistered too - only lived in large cities on the east and west coast. You've given me a lot of food for thought.

I had the exact same thought when I read "Not my daughter, you bitch!" It was completely out of tone with the character and the books, and seemed like it was calculated to make the audience cheer at the soundbite.

I do know not to expect rationality. It's just that I find such a lot of it around and am lulled into a false sense of security in the good sense of people and then ...

And then you find someone on your Facebook wall getting their panties in a twist about the existence of a halal KFC in Sydney. OMG - someone serves KFC with no bacon??? SHARIA LAW!!!

Proh-ven, rather than proo-ven? Ooh, talk Received Pronunciation to me ^_^

Yet another reason to avoid Facebook! And I love the idea of that KFC, since I'm allergic to pig products. If I ever find an urge to eat chain junk food, I'll head there!

(Back in the 70s and 80s there was always a little knot of us at lunch, me, the Jewish girls and the Islamic girls, all able to swap lunch bits without fear once the Islamic girls were rigorous about the no dairy. Who says the problems of the Middle East are intractable? And that was years before this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ)

There's a halal pizzeria just opened up around the corner from me. I think it's the first one in Melbourne. It's packed, every night; people seem to drive from all over the city to come here. Marketing genius.

Imagine growing up in a halal household, and never having tasted KFC's greasy delights, ever. Or pizza FFS. Won't somebody think of teh childrens??

Reign Of Fire!

LOL

(and yet another good reason to NEVER have a F##kbook account. :D )

Edward Hall says that culture teaches us what to notice and what to ignore. Stuart Hall (no relation!) says that culture is the water fish swim in -- they never notice it until they're not in it (very free translations, but I think accurate). Taken together, the obvious conclusion is that if the Halls are right, you can identify a culture by what members of it notice and ignore, but also notice and ignore what they're noticing and ignoring.

Aggggh. I would never have been able to defend that sentence in my diss. Sorry -- will ponder saying it better. The point is that I'm suggesting that a functional definition of culture would work better than an essential one.

Hmmm... I have lots to say about this. I think I should stop before I bore everyone to sleep, and go post something on my own ego-extension.... which perhaps might find a way out of this particular impasse.

I really find smoking a backbutton issue for me, outside of wether it's on one side of the cultural divide or not. I think it's used as a shorthand for some sort of cool sophistication, and I don't see any of the HP characters as having that.

...I really, really want to friend you for this. Can I, please?

That's a good idea. I'd be curious as well. Words like half-and-half thoroughly mystify me because last time I was in a foreign country and had to learn that term, it referred to ground meat that had been mixed together from pork and beef.

I'm not American or English, so culturally I can't really complain about Brit- picking or the lack of it. I'm Indian, and most of my knowledge of both cultures comes from books and movies and music and all sorts of other media. Basically, for me, it's one giant mish- mash, haha. I don't think I'd have a problem with a fic that used a few incongruous spellings, or had a detail or two that was out of place. But then again, I'm not British or American and most of the fanfiction I've read has tended to revolve around those two cultures.

Obviously, I'd click out of a fic that's rooted in some improbable, jarring detail-- or one that overtly ignored the world it's set in. But then again, if a fic is guilty of those things it's probably not a very good one to begin with, yeah?

As to the culture stereotypes and some of the views that people have been upset by, I think anybody'd be upset at their culture being portrayed in an unjustifiably negative/stereotyped/just plain ignorant way. And even if it's justifiable, (which it may very well be)-- well, it's like that old saw about family, isn't it? You're allowed to badmouth your parents but your friends aren't allowed to join in. It's just the way we are.

I think broad generalisations in fic or mainstream media or whatever are appreciated -or at the very least, tolerated- ninety percent of the time. But there's always the chance of someone getting upset because they may be the exception to those generalisations, or they may not see them in quite the same light. Even a CHARACTER making fair/unfair statements about one's country or having negative views of one's country can be incredibly off- putting. Have you read Naomi Novik's Temeraire, series? I loved the books, all the way until the fourth part, I think. The protagonist Lawrence, is by and large a sympathetic character. But he lives in the time of the British Empire and his ideologies are compatible with those of a British gentleman of the time. Which is perfectly all right, and actually completely accurate, considering the age in which the books are set-- but some of his views on the colonies actually made me put the book down and stop reading for a while. I think I expected him -as a sympathetic character who was against slavers and the like- to go against the grain a bit more than he did. It's completely irrational, but there you go. Patriotism, even the subconscious kind, is hard to shake off, I suppose.

This whole post has been really interesting! I mean, obviously, wankery abounds and all that, but from a purely academic perspective it's kinda cool to read everyone's thoughts on culture:)

That was very enlightening. I feel I have to wait formulating an opinion that doesn't come off as ridiculous as I have yet to visit an actual English-speaking country. :P

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A case in point ...

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