blamebrampton | A case in point ...

A case in point ...

So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.

Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.

And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.

I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...

Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

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Please to be seeing my latest posts if you have a moment.

*headdesk*

*sigh*

It's always fun and laughs until someone gets in a huff.

Not privy to any flocked drama.

All I saw was the original post before bed last night read through what was then 50 or so comments and backed out. After writing fanfic for five years I knew that reading any further would just set in the niggles of inadequacy. I'd just written in scones for breakfast and discovered it was a no no. *sigh* Who knew? It was the classicism statements that made me hit the back button. The person was right, I will never know or understand British classicism. How could I without ever been there to visit much less live there for a time.

We do what we can and most of us try damn hard to research this stuff. It can be very disheartening to read that no matter how hard you try your work will not be accepted because you used the word closet instead of wardrobe. And then be told that you as an author didn't care enough to research down to that level.

Then there was the HP story today filled with exaggerated Americanisms, which I thought was hilarious. I read it at work and it made me smile the rest of the day. It's American humour I guess. We make fun of ourselves with a little dig.

HP is a worldwide phenomena. If the original OP wants to help the rest of us out that would be terrific. We'll eat it up, meaning we'll be thrilled.

I haven't seen anyone say that they begrudge a Brit wanting to read fanfic portraying British people accurately. I think what you might have is a few of us saying that we're trying but we can't be perfect so give us a break or two.

But atttempting to portray all these alien cultures accurately is so haaaaaaaaaaard. :( It's not like any place but America really matters, you know?

On a serious note, I get really annoyed when people get Russia and Hungary wrong (which is basically ALL THE TIME), so I totally sympathise with the Brits. Failing to research is not oppressive, it's just sloppy and rude.

Also, I don't get it. Have people not heard of

hp_britglish? It is an extensive repository of all things Britlandian, and not at all difficult to navigate. And if one can't find the answer one is looking for, one can always ask; it's an active and rather lively comm. (No, no, I know. It's just so haaaaaaaaaaard. :()

I saw all the posts and had good fun reading through all of them—figuring out the differences, laughing at all the crazy, nonsensical little things that set the once colony apart from its mothership :D... I intend to return to those posts whenever I forget the details and would like to learn them again.

More for RL as a kind of cultural trivia (some more trivial than others) than for the sake of fiction writing though, I confess. What I'd like to say is this: I actually find it very... error-prone to give general cultural statetments about one place, even if that place is where one calls home for his whole life. It is suspiciously likely that several doors down there would be someone whose views of what is the social-political norm and history of ... not even their country, which is much wider than the place they conduct their life, but just the neighbourhood, even—is entirely different. I used to live in a very dense, very tiny city with a highly homogeneous culture, but even there, there're still so many people who'd describe our common streets and speak and act in slangs and manners I can't completely comprehend. And back to the US vs UK thing, generalizations about the US as depicted are not necessarily fair—the East and West Coast have their own differences, mid-America, likely even more its own world (I know little about it, other than reading the news—which isn't the same as being there); so if one really wants to be picky, even an American writing for an American-based fandom can commit serious cultural faux-pas and I'm sure there's some wank somewhere happening at this moment on that topic :D. I'm sure different parts of the UK have their own culture as well.

I hesitate to generalize for that reason, and I really hesitate to call others out on those things. I am also not very keen on strict Britpick for fanfic writing if I'm time tight (which I am almost all the time) for that reason— Britpick, to me, is not so objective that it can make or break a fic—and writing about the wizarding world is not strictly the UK, so, who knows, maybe wizards DO put cream in tea, triple layers and all, which would explain the very effective lubrication spells :D. Really I find it less critical for a beginning writer like myself to get the Brit thing perfect, compared to spending the time to figure out how to tell a good story. The latter is neverending task. If I do have the time and patience, I, of course, would love to try to weed out Americanisms (and for me, a healthy mix of Asianism likely—just that tea thing the variations between the US and the UK would not be all that eye-catching at all if I start to go into the Asian tea habits :D ); but I wouldn't not publish a story if I don't get there; nor would I claim any story is unreadable because the authors didn't get it right. There are many more worse ways to ruin a fic than having—OMGod and Hay-soos and every haloed dude shopping guns at Walmart—muffin and coffee on the breakfast table. :)

And since I'm rambling off anyways, being someone who is not an English native speaker, slangs are kinda ... so far beyond me they're like Snitches and me, Mr Longbottom. What I have done to minimize the damage is to avoid having the characters swear as much as I can—and basicially not let Ron talk :). And if someone comes to me and announced well, your slang choice is American, I'd change it, of course, and thank her, but then if the outraged face persists, I'd grin and ask "Cut me some slack, will ya?" (which is probably American???)

*Huggles you *

I've just read a portrayal of an Australian in a book written by an American in which every outdated Australianism in used in one scentence, but the bit which really made me laugh was when the character said 'come a guster'. Some editor didn't do her/his job very well as that point.

It's entirely possible (and probable, being me) that I'm oversimplifying and Missing The Point here, but I will never understand how riled people get about any!nation picking.

Yes, the HP books were written within the structure and parameters of the UK, specifically England. The characters, surroundings and details are very distinctly English and unless its an AU, most authors should, and do, try and adhere to Englishisms in setting and details. But at the same time, this is fanfiction. It's not a treaty between nations, nor an official government document and most likely, its not going to change the world. So chill out.

If I write that Harry is hiding in Draco's closet, watching him wank, AND the rest of the story is good, someone closing the window because I failed to use the word wardrobe just strikes me as a shot in their own foot.

We're all trying to have fun, we ff writers. Why be so divisive?

/ ramble

Here's how I personally see it:

1) Comparing and discussing cultural differences is fascinating and educational. I love it. I observe these cultural differences on a daily basis. Comparing different cultures in order to prove that one is superior to the other, i.e. one is irrationally politically correct while the other is "sensible", one is brain addled from watching too many soap operas while the other somehow manages to overcome the psychological pull of its many soap operas, one is universally overrun with religion while the other sing about Jesus in school, insist families attend Church every Sunday so their kids can get into the highest rated state schools, and attend regular Christenings just for the hell of it, etc is extremely irritating for members of the defamed culture to observe. Especially when so many of the comparisons are inaccurate generalisations.

That's where the offence arises -- from the large number of insults heaped on what is actually a very diverse culture -- not from the base level comparisons.

2) Of course people should try and get the details of an unfamiliar culture correct when they are depicting it. And of course it's impossible to get all those details correct unless you've actually lived in and immersed yourself in that culture for several decades. I've lived in the UK for 13 years and I still don't have all the details and differences lined up neatly in rows.

Use a Britpicker (And hope that their Britpicking matches up with the opinions of every single other Brit in HP fandom. Good luck with that.) Do your research. But there are going to be people in HP fandom who are so focussed with the minute details of language differences that they will obsess and rage over tiny parts of speech (gotten?) so you will never be able to get it exactly right anyway.

In the end, my advice would be to do ones best but not let oneself over-focuss on getting Britishisms so "correct" (Because there's quite a bit of difference opinion even amongust Brits as to what is and isn't correct.) that you lose the fun of participating in your silly, diverting fic writing hobby.

On a side note: I certainly hope that I am not the American you refer to as "very upset". I posted a light hearted joke. That's it. Any other information you have would indicate that someone close to me is speaking out of turn.

See, this is exactly why I write basically plot-free porn. As long as I can remember that British guys are generally uncircumcised (and I, ahem, have an in-house reminder), I'm golden!

Huffy Americans are silly little buggers. Heh.

Three words for you. Arthur/Eames, baby.

One Brit, one American, globetrotting master criminals whose vernacular could come from anywhere. The one fandom you can argue your way out of almost any -picking debate.

To the debate on cultural imperialism (which is the invisible background to this argument, isn't it?), I add a whole lot of eye rolling, and also this. Ben & Jerry's has finally opened its first store here. I am going to protest against the smothering effect of US chain stores by attempting to eat it out of existence.

This is possibly the most quietly hilarious thing I have ever read in your journal, and I read you *because* you're dryly hilarious.

Never midn that, have you seen this decidedly not SFW Tremlett?

http://harrissports.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/tremlettcosmo.jpg

Personally, I always welcome the opportunity to use either of my most relevant tongue-in-cheek icons - the one I've used here, or this one, LOL.

I didn't see the original argument. But I found your post very thought-provoking. I have been told - by more than one person - that I am the *only* person who notices Americanisms, so they don't see it as a big deal. However, all of those people were American, and I have also had several conversations with fellow Brits in which we have commiserated with each other over the prevalence of "off of" and, yes, "date", amongst many others.

It's true that not even all Brits agree with each other over what constitutes an Americanism, particularly in the past few years, when quite a few things that I think of as American have become commonly used by British people, due (no doubt) to the amount of American TV we watch.

I don't blame American HP fanfic writers for not knowing every single little difference between the languages. I do blame them if they know the differences and pay no attention to them: if a story says in the HEADER that the author has chosen to ignore (e.g.) the fact that most cookies are called biscuits in the UK, I hope the author will forgive me for choosing to ignore her story.

Apart from glaring examples such as that one, though, I certainly won't refuse to read a story just because I suspect (or know) it contains Americanisms. Some of my very favourite writers use them all the time. And the Americanisms won't stop me enjoying the story, if it's really good. However, I *will* notice them, and every time I notice one, it briefly breaks the spell of the story for me, so I'd much prefer it if they weren't there. (The same goes with spellings, but I find those easier to overlook.)

(If it's a story that's so good that I expect to read it again, I'll save it to disk, and in that case I always edit the Americanisms out, so that the NEXT time I read the story, my experience of it will be even better.)

I have an incredibly long list of things that are American enough to pull me out of a story, albeit briefly. Someday I'll publish it :-)

I didn't see the original drama!post, but I imagine it was interesting.

I think using a Brit-picker is just a matter of respect for the source material. For goodness sake, I've had people Brit-pick me, because it's incredibly difficult not to absorb some Americanisms in this day-and-age. I fretted for twenty minutes over what we call the containers we get chinese takeaway in - cartons seemed too American to me - and ended up consulting

shocolate. I think we went with tray in the end, and I'm sure I was over-thinking it, but these things bother me. So I completely appreciate how difficult it is to write 'British', but it doesn't take an awful lot of work to knock a fic into something with a British tone, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss a fic for a few rogue Americanisms just as long as the author had made a bit of an effort.

Back in the days when I used to write Quantum Leap fic, I had a friend American-pick it for me (and this was pre-internet and pre-my having a computer, so I used to write longhand and send off a photocopy). I wanted my writing to be as authentic as possible, so I took the steps necessary to help me achieve that.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

Amen to that, sister. Not all of us have bought into the hype, though hype may be much of what is available to buy these days. I demand REAL coffee!

I would be '...' except I've seen the same sort of reaction to an attempt to categorize Canadian vs US, so really, not surprised.

But that list would be really useful, especially since I have no framework for British culture outside of Austen/Bronte, and therefore about 200 years off. Fandumb is inhibiting progress! D:

I think you have absolutely missed the mark on this one. I think you're an open enough person to listen to someone else.
You're so far off out of the atmosphere you need an oxygen tank.

My opinion only:

Talking about differences between word choice and cultural influences is cool. A great deal of Americans who write HP, try to have consistent feel and language to JKR's verse (which is a fantasy world created in the UK). I've been Britpicked to change dresser to chest of drawers, nightstand to bed side table, and a whole host more. I've picked them up as I go along. The vast majority of comments were indeed "having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list" but a number of comments made that were some bizarre generalizations about Americans that were indeed rather offensive (and not even remotely accurate) - and they weren't made because they didn't belong in an HP fic, but to get in some nasty digs.

I'm not sure that someone from a smaller country/region and hasn't traveled in America can truly appreicate the vastness and huge multicultural country that it is with widespread variances from regions to region. 310 million people over almost 4 million sq. miles. The cultural differences between American regions are far greater in someways then the cultural differences between the UK and the US. The US is multicultural. The term US culture is a complete misnomer. It's like saying there's a European culture. Yes, maybe a little, but I doubt people in the UK think they have a common culture with the French or Portugese. The common threads vs. differences are probably similar as the commonality and differences with the US.

I thought both posts were absolutely hysterical. I wasn't angry at all. I thought it LOL funny that some people have this conception of Velveeta eating-church going-saving themselves for marriage-soap opera watching-think there is nothing outside of US borders- Americans. I don't know 1 single person (and I know a lot of people) who even has any of those traits/habits. Ok, maybe church for weddings and baptisms. It's rather laughable. The response fic was satirical response to these absurdist stereotypes of American culture and writing. IT'S FUNNY.

Yes, we have a coffee culture. For the record, I have a great big cuppa joe in the morning and probably 3-4 cups of Earl Gray (black) the rest of the day. Sometimes when I have a cold I put honey in it.

So to sum up my long winded American-ness. Posts/comments/discussion talking about cultural differneces = interesting. People thinking there is such a things as a general 'American Culture'= not understanding Americans. People wanting to be satirical about bizarre American stereotypes = HILARIOUS.

Define "soap opera" please.

All my fault, really.

I’m sorry, I’ll read that again: the note handed in by a Dr Kiosk in fact reads, ‘We are all guilty!’ (bar, of course, the 25-stone, iron-watch-chained, crag-visaged, grim-booted Alderman Foodbotham).

I suppose that if one person in ten within fandom had the faintest glimmer who in buggery I am, I should be regarded as the Dire Exemplar of those who Insist Sternly Upon Brit-picking (there are advantages to being obscure, it appears). The characterisation, if made, were no less unfair for its being pardonable, but, there you are.

I don’t, actually, give a tuppenny dam about Britpicking as a matter of Respect for the Culture or as a Defence Against Yank Cultural Hegemony, and I have read with pleasure stories that were otherwise good enough to withstand a basic failure to Pick Brit. I do think, however, that it’s a matter of Respect for One’s Craft and for the Canon: if you, O Writer, cannot be arsed to make a decent effort towards getting your characters and their canon right, I cannot be arsed to read you.

Howsoddingever, I can to some extent see a justification for the raised hackles of American Writers – why is why I have done my bit towards making Britpicking a crowd-sourced effort (well, that and the Secret Orders I am charged with by Hannan, Carswell, Redwood, and the 1922 Committee). The problem of course is that so many of those who pronounce upon these matters – and no, I don’t mean anyone here present – are those who, wherever they live and move and have their being, mentally inhabit, and have their mental horizons firmly bounded by, Islington and Notting Hill. They are the sort who speak of Britain and the British in a way that clearly and reflexively excludes the Scots, the Welsh, the Norns, most Jews, most Asians of whatever background, non-Tablet RCs, serious Chapel-goers, Black Britons, anyone rural, any Tory who’s not so Wet you could shoot snipe over him, Orange Bookers, and Mrs Gillian Duffy of Rochdale. And they do tend rather to lecture foreigners in a discernibly de haute en bas manner. Worse still, their pronouncements, so far as I’ve seen, are greeted with cringing gratitude and ritual self-abasement by the sort of American who spends her life barracking (or Baracking) her own country and apologising for its existence (just as the upper-middles of Islington and Notting Hill go about atoning for Britain). I tend to despise any subject or citizen of a civilised nation – the Anglosphere, at bottom – who creeps and crawls in that fashion, and I’m not surprised that the coincidence of London chattering-class condescension and culturally-cringing fellow-countrymen exasperates any self-respecting American, although it’s a pity that this leads to their rejecting the concept of Britpicking because some of its advocates and practitioners are oiks, poons, and yoghurt-knitting Grauniad-istas.

But, then, one wants never to trust anyone who thinks Resisting Right-Deviationism more important than the Ashes.

woo, it's heating up in here!

i've read through the bulk of the comments and, embarrassingly, my first reaction centers on myself (i should just go ahead and declare solipsism a religion): i have worked/lived for decent chunks of time on three continents (north america, europe and australia) and have been a coffee drinker (who takes milk) since i was 16, but i never, ever noticed differences in the milk! i am a diehard foodie and yet my apparently non-discriminating palate never noticed a darn thing. though, hopefully in my defense, i always bought whatever had the least fat, so maybe that explains it...

all this interesting cultural debate and all i can think is: different milk?! o.O

on a more serious note, it's quite difficult to engage "as an american" as against "a british person" on the subject of cultural difference (or as any person of one culture as against a person of another - but, again, i'm speaking from my perspective only). there is no monolithic claim to american identity or an american way of being, imo. i imagine the same holds true for brits. so the "american-ness" i'd be hailing in such a discussion pertains solely to me and my experiences of the world around me (which i necessarily interpret through a subjective lens) in contrast to the subjective british-ness of the person with whom i'm engaging. each of us is speaking of generalities when dealing with particularities. it's a bit of an epistemological crap shoot.

what's more, it strikes me that as regional differences in the us can be quite polarizing, it might be the case that i share more in common with a particular british person in terms of religiosity, sense of humor, education, political ideology etc than with someone from the us deep south (being a northeasterner through and through). as pie rightly pointed out, all three of us may still be more alike than not as compared to someone from a non-western culture. so, yeah. dealing in generalities is necessarily messy, limited and limiting business.

to come full circle and end on another me-centric, non-serious note, i am grateful to this debate for allowing me to contemplate all things sleepwear. it's given me the chance to mentally re-visit all those i've shared a bed with to search for patterns. plus, i now know some lovely things about pingrid and scarves, lol.

Edited 2011-01-09 01:36 (UTC)

I'm too Australian to be a proper Brit-picker, but if you are going to use a game of cricket to show that your story is set in England, make sure you know the difference between cricket and baseball.

Any difference, really. Because they are actually not very much alike. I was going to write a long rant about this, but since I did so at the time I read the story - which was, in fact, a published novel, so one might have hoped the editor or publisher would have cared enough to notice the problems even if the author didn't - I figured I might as well link to that.

It still annoys me, though.

I'm not American or English, so culturally I can't really complain about Brit- picking or the lack of it. I'm Indian, and most of my knowledge of both cultures comes from books and movies and music and all sorts of other media. Basically, for me, it's one giant mish- mash, haha. I don't think I'd have a problem with a fic that used a few incongruous spellings, or had a detail or two that was out of place. But then again, I'm not British or American and most of the fanfiction I've read has tended to revolve around those two cultures.

Obviously, I'd click out of a fic that's rooted in some improbable, jarring detail-- or one that overtly ignored the world it's set in. But then again, if a fic is guilty of those things it's probably not a very good one to begin with, yeah?

As to the culture stereotypes and some of the views that people have been upset by, I think anybody'd be upset at their culture being portrayed in an unjustifiably negative/stereotyped/just plain ignorant way. And even if it's justifiable, (which it may very well be)-- well, it's like that old saw about family, isn't it? You're allowed to badmouth your parents but your friends aren't allowed to join in. It's just the way we are.

I think broad generalisations in fic or mainstream media or whatever are appreciated -or at the very least, tolerated- ninety percent of the time. But there's always the chance of someone getting upset because they may be the exception to those generalisations, or they may not see them in quite the same light. Even a CHARACTER making fair/unfair statements about one's country or having negative views of one's country can be incredibly off- putting. Have you read Naomi Novik's Temeraire, series? I loved the books, all the way until the fourth part, I think. The protagonist Lawrence, is by and large a sympathetic character. But he lives in the time of the British Empire and his ideologies are compatible with those of a British gentleman of the time. Which is perfectly all right, and actually completely accurate, considering the age in which the books are set-- but some of his views on the colonies actually made me put the book down and stop reading for a while. I think I expected him -as a sympathetic character who was against slavers and the like- to go against the grain a bit more than he did. It's completely irrational, but there you go. Patriotism, even the subconscious kind, is hard to shake off, I suppose.

This whole post has been really interesting! I mean, obviously, wankery abounds and all that, but from a purely academic perspective it's kinda cool to read everyone's thoughts on culture:)

That was very enlightening. I feel I have to wait formulating an opinion that doesn't come off as ridiculous as I have yet to visit an actual English-speaking country. :P

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