blamebrampton

I think you have absolutely missed the mark on this one. I think you're an open enough person to listen to someone else.
You're so far off out of the atmosphere you need an oxygen tank.

My opinion only:

Talking about differences between word choice and cultural influences is cool. A great deal of Americans who write HP, try to have consistent feel and language to JKR's verse (which is a fantasy world created in the UK). I've been Britpicked to change dresser to chest of drawers, nightstand to bed side table, and a whole host more. I've picked them up as I go along. The vast majority of comments were indeed "having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list" but a number of comments made that were some bizarre generalizations about Americans that were indeed rather offensive (and not even remotely accurate) - and they weren't made because they didn't belong in an HP fic, but to get in some nasty digs.

I'm not sure that someone from a smaller country/region and hasn't traveled in America can truly appreicate the vastness and huge multicultural country that it is with widespread variances from regions to region. 310 million people over almost 4 million sq. miles. The cultural differences between American regions are far greater in someways then the cultural differences between the UK and the US. The US is multicultural. The term US culture is a complete misnomer. It's like saying there's a European culture. Yes, maybe a little, but I doubt people in the UK think they have a common culture with the French or Portugese. The common threads vs. differences are probably similar as the commonality and differences with the US.

I thought both posts were absolutely hysterical. I wasn't angry at all. I thought it LOL funny that some people have this conception of Velveeta eating-church going-saving themselves for marriage-soap opera watching-think there is nothing outside of US borders- Americans. I don't know 1 single person (and I know a lot of people) who even has any of those traits/habits. Ok, maybe church for weddings and baptisms. It's rather laughable. The response fic was satirical response to these absurdist stereotypes of American culture and writing. IT'S FUNNY.

Yes, we have a coffee culture. For the record, I have a great big cuppa joe in the morning and probably 3-4 cups of Earl Gray (black) the rest of the day. Sometimes when I have a cold I put honey in it.

So to sum up my long winded American-ness. Posts/comments/discussion talking about cultural differneces = interesting. People thinking there is such a things as a general 'American Culture'= not understanding Americans. People wanting to be satirical about bizarre American stereotypes = HILARIOUS.

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Just quickly, because I have to go to bed very soon. You're talking about Mel's post as one of your two, I'm not. I only read it after she commented above that she had written something. I can see why you would think that I might have been outraged, but am terribly sad that you think I would have been!

It wasn't her best work, which is a shame, but the coyote was inspired (if only it had been a were-coyote, that would have been perfect!)

Quite a few comments made in the original post refer to previous discussions on Shiv's LJ, which context is, I grant you, not immediately obvious to the casual reader. For example, my comment on religion was not only in reference to her suggestion that there is only religion in HP fic from Americans, but in response to a criticism of one of my fics that we have previously discussed in which I was accused of foregrounding my personal faith because I had characters attend a funeral in a church.

Many points were also to do with American writing, rather than Americans per se, such as the infamous soap opera influence. This is an important distinction, and one that was thrown aside in ways that I don't think can be justified.

We all know that America is hugely diverse, as even a history of 20 years of the Republican party will show. But I will stand by the statement that religion is overly influential in your country, as too many political decisions are made in the light of it. And also that Starbucks is not real coffee. Cannot speak as to cheese, due to allergies.

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Hardly one has watched American soap operas for the last ten years, which is why almost all (save a couple hold outs) one by one have been cancelled over the past five years. Seriously.

Hollywood movies seem far more influential to fanfic and writing in general.

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They are very much what I was thinking of in the overly influenced by soap writing category. Transformers, everything Katherine Heigl has ever been in and the entire Law and Order franchise are particularly guilty! Though you suggest a possible transmission vector as all those writers have had to find work somewhere.

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o.O I think there's a language gap here.
An American 'soap opera' refers to a daytime serial (usually containing a hospital, police station, and some insanely wealthy family's mansion as the main sets).

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I do know that, my point was that there is a trend in American writing to works that are overly influenced by the tropes of soap opera.

As examples, Lost in Translation: Not Influenced -- writing based on characters and situations that come about organically, people think about their actions at length, then rethink, minimal change occurs, but that change resonates in the audience because it seems real.

Law and Order: Highly influenced -- plot searches for the bigger shock and bigger twist to a point where it becomes almost pornographic, highly unlikely chances are commonplace, no one notices when an actor who previously played character X comes back as character Y (that one you can sort of look past because people deserve work), melodrama rather than naturalism being the model. I have to say that I haven't watched enough episodes of L&O anything to know whether it picks up on the trope of misunderstandings and half-overheard things being the basis for significant disasters, but I would not be shocked if it did. Change does not really resonate in the viewer because you are fairly sure it will not be lasting and the same disasters will be back next week.

Does that make more sense? Greys Anatomy would have probably been an even better example for the second, but I am not at all convinced it's not an actual soap, despite its claims to be an adult drama. kestrelsparhawk said something very clever above, which was that soap opera may also been a strong influence on the way people react on reality TV, because that is what they are used to from people on TV. It has reached the point where if I was flicking past Survivor, or even Ellen or Oprah, and saw someone reacting with quiet modesty, I would be surprised ...

(edited because I forgot to actually write a sentence, oops!)

Edited Date: 2011-01-09 04:36 am (UTC)

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I'm still horribly confused about your point. So what American writing are you talking about? Stephen King, Tom Clancy, Dean Koontz, John Grisham? (picks names off current NYtimes best sellers list) or are you specifically talking about fan fiction? Or talking about screenplays?

The night time dramas definitely evolved from day time soaps. The first big push was in the 80's w/Dallas and Dynasty then it morphed into the serial dramas like LA Law and hospital shows like ER. So yeah, it's serial tv. I don't watch it, but it's a guilty pleasure for a lot of folks. I don't watch too much tv, but tend to lean towards scifi and fantasy - but a lot of that stuff has that serial/episodic with seasonal running plot format also. Does serial TV have an effect on current American writing? I don't really see it in current American literature. Some longer fanfics do feel a bit more like serials to me than novels, but I think that's it's own genre and don't see it only w/American ff authors.

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I'm talking about American writing as a whole. So if we are looking to the bestseller lists, I would definitely lump Twilight, Carol O'Connor and probably Jeffrey Deaver into the overly influenced camp. Charlaine Harris and John Grisham teeter on the edge, sometimes falling over, more often having enough irony and political subtext to stay clear of anything but a referential usage of the tropes. Tom Clancy is old-school American writing of the 1940s and Stephen King varies wildly depending on which book we're talking about. Haven't read enough Dean Koontz to say.

Serials are a different issue because they lead to a certain genre of writing, which grew out of 19th century publishing trends, so the TV model followed the writerly one, which has been around for so long as to be wholly entrenched in the way that we think about narrative in the English speaking world. This is not the same as the soap influence, which shares some elements with the late 19th century fashion for melodrama, but is distinct in enough ways to make it not just a repeat.

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Yeah I don't see it. I'm not familiar with some of these writers you've mentioned, but from what I've read (a sampling of some popular authors), I don't see that melodramatic "oh my god you slept w/my twin sister at our wedding" - HUGE slap - cue music da da da - fade to commercial. But I don't read romance as a genre, so perhaps it's more in that genre. Dunno.

What I do see is the influence of movies. Sometimes books feel like they're edited with the pace and feel of what will translate nicely into a 2hr film, sometimes it's just scenes that you can practically visualize with the camera cuts and all. I'm not sure if that's something deliberate by the author (to get the book made into a movie) or subconscious because movies are such a pervasive part of our lives. Maybe it's just us as readers being so entrenched in visual entertainment that sometimes we visualize in that way as we read. Not sure. But I definitely think it's not just an American trend.

JKR has done it to me a number of times. As an example, the opening chapter of DH feels that way. Dark room of Death Eaters around a table. Camera pans around the room then upward to reveal- Muggle Studies teacher. Dark speech by Voldy. AK - cue snake. "Dinner, Nagini." Snake attacks- quick cut to black. So yeah, when I saw it in film, it sort of confirmed how well that scene was written to translate to film. Could be completely subconscious because 5 movies were made by the time she was writing DH and yes, I'd seen 5 movies when I went to read DH. But I have to point out the obvious line of Molly's "not my daughter, you bitch" - if that wasn't written for the move, I don't know what else it could've been.

So nope, I don't see that trend you're talking about, but I think my image of soap opera melodrama may not quite match yours.

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norton-gale.livejournal.com

I had the exact same thought when I read "Not my daughter, you bitch!" It was completely out of tone with the character and the books, and seemed like it was calculated to make the audience cheer at the soundbite.

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lilliputian722.livejournal.com

*gasps in outrage as I hug my Starbucks*

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Well, it's a real beverage ;-)

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Every country has cultural variance between regions. Europe is not a country with a uniformly shared government, shared set of laws, shared constitution, shared history that's taught as part of a regular school curriculum; it never has been, so I'm not sure how comparing Europe to America in this respect makes any sense.

France and Portugal may be tiny, but they too have cultural variance between regions. Shit, there is cultural variance in Japan, and one would think that was strange, as small and isolated as it's been from outside influence for centuries. The presence of regional differences (and the presence of immigrant populations, which are certainly not unique to the USA) doesn't mean there is no overarching culture in those places. The claim that "the USA is multicultural" is certainly accurate, but the presence of outside or regional cultural influences doesn't by itself preclude uniform cultural influences.

When I hang out with my Canada born-and-raised friends, I tune them out when they start going on about Paddington Bear and Degrassi and Ashley Macisaac and hockey. I've lived and worked here for well over a decade and speak one of the national languages with a barely noticeable accent, but I could never "pass for Canadian" if I'm put in a room of born-and-raised Canucks and forced to speak with them, because when they start talking about their shared experience growing up, I have nothing to bring to the table.

That shared experience is certainly not uniform in that not every single born-and-raised Canadian will have watched ALL the same shows and read ALL the same books and listened to ALL the same music, but there's enough cross-hatch for at least passing familiarity (and thus an ability to relate that just doesn't exist for most outsiders). These kinds of things that no outsider can ever fully identify with are what makes up Canadian culture, and by all accounts it's no different in the US. (I call this the "not everyone grew up with Sesame Street" effect.) As much as I might watch Paddington Bear now, I will never have the experience of being a Canadian child [who goes to a Canadian school and has Canadian friends] who watches it.

There are plenty of cultural influences that are uniquely American, and they exist independently of "home-country" cultural influences in immigrant or post-immigrant communities. One doesn't have to travel extensively in America to see these influences, one just has to be an outsider and turn their TV to CNN.

The soap opera-watching McDonald's eating coffee-guzzling housewife who drives a minivan is a stupid stereotype, but it's not stupid because there's no such thing as American culture.

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I disagree.

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Okay!

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pir8fancier.livejournal.com

Exactly how do you define "culture"?

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There is no single definition for culture, but the closest to me is "behaviour and beliefs acquired through social learning".

I have found that the popular culture, art, and media in the three countries I've lived in as a card-carrying local have tended to provide fairly accurate representations of expected/common beliefs and behaviours.

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pir8fancier.livejournal.com

...because there's no such thing as American culture.

I don't understand this statement.

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That wasn't the whole sentence.

What I said was that stereotypes aren't stupid because there's no such thing as American culture (that is, they're stupid for other reasons). Because there IS such a thing as American culture. That was kind of the whole point of the comment preceding the last sentence...

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shiv5468.livejournal.com

WEll you'd be wrong about that - a lot of my European flisties and I do see ourselves as having a common European culture. We do. We have a lot of history in common, though usually on the other side, and a lot of economic and political beliefs in common.

If you read hetfic, you would see that the things we discussed about virginity being prized, no sex before marriage, patriarchal and rigid gender roles are all there. And when they're there I see them as written by Americans. Noting the correlation between the two doesn't mean all Americans are like that / believe that, but neither does the fact that some Americans don't think that mean that it isn't an artefact of American and not English culture.

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