blamebrampton (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
blamebrampton) wrote2011-01-08 04:37 pm
blamebrampton) wrote2011-01-08 04:37 pm
A case in point ...
So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.
Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.
And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.
I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...
Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.
AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!
Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.
And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.
I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...
Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.
AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!
no subject
All I saw was the original post before bed last night read through what was then 50 or so comments and backed out. After writing fanfic for five years I knew that reading any further would just set in the niggles of inadequacy. I'd just written in scones for breakfast and discovered it was a no no. *sigh* Who knew? It was the classicism statements that made me hit the back button. The person was right, I will never know or understand British classicism. How could I without ever been there to visit much less live there for a time.
We do what we can and most of us try damn hard to research this stuff. It can be very disheartening to read that no matter how hard you try your work will not be accepted because you used the word closet instead of wardrobe. And then be told that you as an author didn't care enough to research down to that level.
Then there was the HP story today filled with exaggerated Americanisms, which I thought was hilarious. I read it at work and it made me smile the rest of the day. It's American humour I guess. We make fun of ourselves with a little dig.
HP is a worldwide phenomena. If the original OP wants to help the rest of us out that would be terrific. We'll eat it up, meaning we'll be thrilled.
I haven't seen anyone say that they begrudge a Brit wanting to read fanfic portraying British people accurately. I think what you might have is a few of us saying that we're trying but we can't be perfect so give us a break or two.
no subject
I don't know of any British reader who would ever say something like this, though. I do know several who might send you a PM or comment along the lines of 'LOVED the story (PS wardrobe, not closet)', but that's because they can't help themselves, and they're the same as the ones who can't let a typo go.
This idea of accepted/not accepted is bunk (from the American bunkum, which is such a good word I use it regularly). There is no Potter Passport Control at which one is stamped. Any simple reading of any sample fest in the fandom will make that clear, as British readers fill the comments for American fics with statements of their enjoyment.
This idea does not come from British readers. It does not come from Brits who talk about the differences between the two cultures. We do not finish such discussions with a checklist on which a fic must score more than 50 to be considered readable. That is something that Americans invent in response to discussions on difference. It's a false response, for proof of which statement, go back to all those comments.
And no one expects people who do not grow up inside a culture to be perfect at representing it. Having lived mostly outside the UK for the last couple of decades, *I* have issues with some things (my pronunciation of proven is now becoming anachronistic for my age bracket, for a start). We do expect to hold onto the right to say 'Eh, that didn't feel real to me'. I fully support the right of Supernatural fandom readers to have exactly the same expectation in the opposite direction, even though it, too, is a worldwide phenomenon.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
I'm preparing a meta piece on cultural differences for a com. I wanted to make sure I dealt with issues that puzzled the American flist and didn't assume my cultural experience is taken as being representative. I don't intend really deal with class because that's a book in itself and you'd be bored.
Where in any of that does it say Britpicking is mandatory? People read fic all the time that they enjoy with the occasional wince about thanksgiving in hogwarts.
no subject
It sounds like the metapiece will be fascinating. I love to read Britglish all the time just for the pleasure of finding out difference -- have hung out there ever since I was researching for Squib and found out carnivals are "fun fairs." What drives me crazy are the stories which not only take Americanisms as "normal" but assume that wizarding culture is going to be the same as their own -- hence we have fics where all the main characters smoke, get wasted every weekend, and care about designer labels. Hmmm, would enjoy your discussing the differences between British teenagers and adults, too. Because it's conceivably possible all the most imp't soccer players smoke... just unlikely to me.
no subject
I really find smoking a backbutton issue for me, outside of wether it's on one side of the cultural divide or not. I think it's used as a shorthand for some sort of cool sophistication, and I don't see any of the HP characters as having that. They're not that glossy.
And I don't like smoking.
Smoking
No one over 21 or so actually respects smokers, former smokers least of all. To me, it's a signal that the person writing is almost certainly immature. I don't backbutton many fics, because I'm anal retentive that way, and also I suppose because the occasional adrenaline rush combined with swearing is good for my soul.
I'd love it if people came to visit me in public housing and saw all the desperate smokers in wheelchairs sitting outside the building, many with oxygen tanks. They're mostly over 65, and obviouslyl not exactly wealthy. Cool? Hah.
Re: Smoking
Whoa, what a broad statement to make. You might not respect smokers but I really do not think you can say that about, oh, I don't know, let's just say a LOT of people. I don't smoke. I don't like smoking. If someone around me lights up it tends to activate a latent tendency to asthma, but even I wouldn't go so far as to make a broad brush statement like that. I actually have a couple of friends who are pretty much chain smokers and they happen to be lovely people with a very bad habit. I don't respect them any less as people.
To me, it's a signal that the person writing is almost certainly immature.
Another intersting thing to say. Do you consider my fic immature? Me immature? I have smoking in several of my fics for some very salient reasons--as an insight into character--not because I have a secret agenda to promote smoking or think that it's really cool or is a sad attempt to make my characters sophisticated or any of the other perjoratives used above.
Re: Smoking
And lots of other excuses but -- you're right. Even I (Great Attacker of the Smoking Fic) respect a lot of people who are smokers. I just don't respect their smoking. And I'm sure that's a flaw in me, but it started after my aunt, the only person in my childhood I was sure loved me, died from lung cancer, as her mother did, both of them smokers. the nonsmoking people who shared their genes lived and mostly are living far longer, and no lung cancer.
What I was reacting to is a larger-than-normal group of fics and art this Xmas where I felt smoking was portrayed as an attractive habit. I couldn't help thinking that the people writing the fics were very young -- just as I react when I read that every Friday night everyone goes and drinks themselves into a stupor, without even a hint that this may not be the most healthy way for adults to behave, or in fact, not the norm. I could absolutely believe in an alcoholic trio who are self-medicating, but would expect them to explore at least a little if there might be healthier and more fun ways to relax than drink themselves into bad judgment calls and then live the next day with their self-infliected alcohol poisoning.
But writers which don't even acknowledge that there are serious problems with smoking really bother me. Product placement in films meant everyone was smoking cigars on camera for a few years; now it's cigarettes again. It reminds me very much of WWII smoking propaganda, where Big Tobacco took steps to insure that every American equated cigarettes with patriotism and winning the war. then in the 50s they used the result (everyone smoking) to make sure the most admirable and interesting characters were the smokers. It's the "bad boy" meme where someone is a little wild and resistant to authority. It works really really well with adolescents, particularly ones who are otherwise quite intelligent. So when I see smoking used as a marker for romantic behavior, I see writers who are not yet fully self-reflexive or able to see other points of view concerning their behaviours. That's what I was getting at, and my generalizations were insulting to 21 year olds who are serious and reflective about addiction.
As you know I love your work, and I wouldn't if I felt you weren't reflexive and thoughtful about people. (I even like your Snarry fic a lot, and since you know what I think of Snape generally, please take that as a compliment.) I never feel in your fics that people smoke because it's normal to smoke and natural to smoke and nonsmokers are very uncool. When Draco smokes, it's all about character, and I believe it. (I wonder occasionally how Harry can stand the taste, but that's love. My ex is now partnered with an occasional smoker, and the agreement is that the smoker will NEVER kiss her without brushing her teeth first.) It's the naturalization of a destructive act, with the underlying message that it's edgy and dashing, which disturbs me. I knew I'd hate to be around Draco and his receptionist, but I also know people like that and there was humour involved. I'd be equally upset -- and view it as the same problem -- if the Golden Trio met every Friday night to shoot up heroin, and pleasantly floated around the next day; or had a drink before departmental meetings and that was presented as the best way to deal with the problem.
I've also concluded that I better pull back on smoking rants unless I can focus on the problem rather than the person with the problem. I take it far too personally, and being on state substance abuse boards and such doesn't help the objectivity. So again, I do appreciate your reminding me that exaggeration in the pursuit of persuasion is a vice.
Re: Smoking
I've had a hell of a year and have not read much HP fic lately, and Christmas is always a crazy time, so the holiday fics often pass me by, but I will say that to these admittedly uninvolved eyes that there seems to be a general trend toward the trivial. There is a HP new fest being promoted that focuses on disabilities. I am tempted to join it and write a story about someone losing limbs to diabetes, or committing suicide because of mental illness, or going to rehab, or losing an eye because of a bludger to the face. I imagine that is not the intent of this fest. I don't know anyone who has a leg missing, but I know a lot of people in wheelchairs, those who suffer from the daily and incessant pain from fibromyalgia, and those who struggle to stay sober. My mother broke her leg very badly many years ago and limps. My stepfather was a POW in a Japanese prison camp and suffers from PTS. I saw the promotion for that fest and thought of them. Hopefully the writers will focus on the magnitude of living with disabilities, as opposed to writing stories that are nothing but oh-Draco-has-a-booboo-let-me-suck-your dick schtick
And since you were so gracious I will admit that I've realized that I use drinking as a gag in several fics (the humorous ones). Given that my own father was a horrible alcoholic you'd think I'd be super-sensitive to this issue. I made a vow six months ago to stop with the alcohol-based humor. It gets a laugh but at what cost?
In short, I agree with you that issues like smoking or drinking need to be shown in all their glory. Nothing like that should be candycoated. To romanticize them is grossly irresponsible (something I have been guilty of and which I hoped I addressed in some fashion with my Ron/Pansy fic).
We're good!
no subject
...I really, really want to friend you for this. Can I, please?
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
http://www.medindia.net/news/Teenage-Smoking-Rate-in-UK-Has-Fallen-After-Raising-Legal-Age-for-Buying-Cigarettes-72865-1.htm
shows smoking rates in the U.K. was roughly 24% for teenagers before the ban went into effect. It has now dropped to something like 18%. If we're using the Hogwarts kids as representative of teenagers in the U.K. except for that little wizarding issue, then it stands to reason that 24% of the kids at Hogwarts are smokers. The reason why is immaterial. Does it really make sense that we have this pub culture (much of the action in these books takes place at either the Leaky or the Three Broomsticks) and we don't have people smoking? Adults AND kids? Unlikely.
I personally abhor smoking and I'd be devastated if one of my kids lit up, but it's a reality. Based on these numbers, it might actually be irresponsible NOT to have a few smokers. I must say that I've read a lot of HP fic and I have yet to read a story that glamorizes smoking.
I'm curious. How far do we appropriate modern British culture into the HP world? Given that this series was originally written for children, we have a distinct absence of swearing and smoking, but I don't think this sanitization is realistic, no more than it is realistic to assume that these characters are abstaining from pre-marital sex.
no subject
Ultimately it's not a realism issue for me but one of personal taste. People pick their noses. Don't want to read about It. People get divorced or are unhappy or are impotent or smell or .... still unlikely to read.
My take on the cultural divide encompasses several strands. There's linguistic markers like Lucius saying gotten, and then there's a point about whole strands of missing ideas for fic like abortion that I'm not necessarily interested in reading but notice the absence of.
And then there's my perrsonal preference not to read smoking fic. It kills my lungs and I hate it. I specifically didn't conflate the two.
On your last point.... if a muggleborn is talking about their upbringing I should think modern British culture is in point. Purebloods must be aware of it though get the details wrong and dislike it. Pureblood culture is located as a divergent strand of British culture but for instance I'd argue it's wrong to assume old fashioned views on witches. Because they have wands and because the Victorians weren't that Victorian really. I see people argue that wearing robes means they are old fashioned but it doesn't follow - I used to go to work in a costume that mourned the passing of queen Anne. One day we might get over it. It doesn't make the legal system old fashioned though. Shrugs.
Discussing cultural differences doesn't imply people should take notice of them when writing but neither should anyone be surprised if Brits find some elements wrong or backbutton issues.
no subject
Ultimately it's not a realism issue for me but one of personal taste. People pick their noses. Don't want to read about It. People get divorced or are unhappy or are impotent or smell or .... still unlikely to read.
These are exactly the sort of stories I do want to read about, because if I don't have a touchstone to them as real people, then as a reader there is a veil. And real people smoke, swear, get divorced, have affairs, and, oh, have sex. While I have no personal problem with PWPs as a rule (other than finding them boring at this point), now I look for fics where the characters DO smell and do pick their noses. In short, they are like me except they can do cool things with wands.
I'm also curious about your take on Draco not being sophisticated. He's brought up in luxury, his parents are sophisticated (the scene at the World Cup is evidence of that). Lucius is beyond powerful; nowhere is he portrayed as slightly ridiculous (as is Fudge). Indeed, he's the opposite. JKR writes him as physically overwhelming--the sort of man who walks into a room and takes it over--and I would think that sophistication would naturally be a strong component of that power. It seems to me that it would be impossible for Draco NOT to be sophisticated given his parents. Is he immature, spoiled, and arrogant? Yes. I happen to know people who are sophisticated beyond belief, and yet they are also immature, spoiled, and arrogant.
Discussing cultural differences doesn't imply people should take notice of them when writing but neither should anyone be surprised if Brits find some elements wrong or backbutton issues.
Of course we shouldn't. Although both westerners, we are writing about a culture that is foreign. As an aside I will say that we are struggling to write within a vacuum as the majority of us have U.S. editions of the books with American usage and peculiar cultural references edited out. So, we're hamstrung a bit, but it doesn't give us a pass.
I am taking this beyond that issue. First of all (and I think this is a flaw in the book but I know why she did it), JKR keeps the wizarding world completely isolated from the Muggle world. Hermione, the standard Muggle bearer, is co-opted entirely into the wizarding world. She even writes with a quill. Why not just pullout a frigging pen? Why not just hand in sheets of binder paper? There is absolutely no reason for wizards not to drive cars. It's stupid and bizarre and yet JKR keeps them in a time warp (roughly 18th century?) for her world-building purposes. So I would disagree with you. They ARE old-fashioned. In fact, with the exception of clothing, they are living a life that is, maybe, two-three hundred years from the present. Diagon Alley looks like something out of a Shakespeare play. In fact, Arthur's whole schtick is his constant yearing to be part of the present day. I don't know how you can leap from people writing with quills to assuming a modern day legal system. Indeed, I would say the ONLY modern thing about this culture is their clothing.
On the whole, I find that JKR's world-building gaps (it seems to be a society composed of a huge government, sports teams, a few pubs, one radio station, and some shopkeepers) make it extremely problematic to make any generalizations about what aspects of modern British culture to appropriate for our characters. Linguistic markers? That's a no-brainer. But beyond that I question whether we can assume that wizarding Britain is merely modern Britain-light. Because she maroons these characters in a fuzzy no-man's land in time, I think an argument could be made that the culture that is most appropriate is 17th-century Britain, which I don't agree with but I can see how you get there.
My point is that this world is profoundly isolated (world-building in neon) culturally, socially, and economically from present-day Britain. I find myself taking cues from the series itself and not making any grand extrapolations to modern British culture. Because this series isn't set in the present, even though it is resolutely English.
no subject
Sophistication = / = luxury or wealth. White peacocks.... tacky.
Er, the thing is that lots of places look like something out of Shakespeare. I live in flats that are over a hundred years old, I worked in a building that was five hundred years old and which was considered a bit modern for barrister's standards, I used to wear an outfit that was based on the style of someone from 400-500 years ago. I used to wear a horsehair wig, falling bands, robes, have a pocket on the back of my robes to receive my honorarium even though I got paid by bank deposit the same as everyone else. I used to eat my lunch in a Hall that's been in use since the Middle Ages and featured in Bleak House. Lots and lots and lots of bits of England are old. It doesn't mean it's old fashioned, or that members of the Wizarding World are living in the past in the sense you mean.
Why would you bother to learn to drive a car when you can Apparate and Floo? I don't drive a car because I can use the Tube. That doesn't make me old fashioned.
I don't think that the Wizarding World is modern britain lite. What I aver is that it's Different. And that difference is not necessarily Olde Worlde Britain, simply on the basis of quills and parchment, because there are lots of things that I do and see on a daily basis in RL are Olde.
And there are plenty of other things that show progressive attitudes - women work, own property, carry wands, have rank, are on the Wizengamot. That's not congruent with C17th England at all. And I don't know what view you take on the role of women in C17th Century, but if that's proxy for no sex before marriage 25% of women were pregnant before marriage. You would also have to consider the difference between town and country, and different classes of people.
In short, I doubt Wizarding culture stopped developing at the time that it split from the Muggle world, not least because of the influx of Muggleborns. And that past is rarely as people suppose anyway when they say that the Wizarding World is old fashioned.
no subject
Which is utter nonsense. I read, write, and enjoy both.
Sophistication = / = luxury or wealth.
You're winning my argument for me. We are told repeatedly* told throughout the series that the Malfoys are wealthy. I find it interesting that you're focusing on a single image in *seven* books as your barometer for how sophisticated the Malfoys are or aren't. Nothing in the series up until this point portrays Lucius as tacky: quite the reverse. Cursory research on peacocks reveals a varied and rich imagery throughout history. None of the sites that I read referred to them as a symbol of arrogance (my interpretation) or yours (tackiness). Indeed, they were once a symbol to ward off serpents, begging the question as to what exactly what JKR meant by choosing the peacock as the Malfoy patronus.
While women play a role in government, it's secondary, as is is true of all the women in this series. It's the love of one mother (Lily) and the abdication of another (Merope) that moves this story forward. There isn't a single woman figure in this series who isn't in a secondary role (even Hermione and McGonagall). If they aren't number two, they are a mother (e.g., Molly). Tonks is nothing more than a joke figure until she becomes a mother. Then she's killed off. I think one could make an excellent argument that this book is largely about mothering and what happens when mothers are absent, so way to go Jo vis a vis Teddy. All of the major conflicts in these books are between men/boys (Harry versus Voldemort, Dumbledore versus Grindelwald, Harry versus Draco, Snape versus Harry). Not exactly modern.
Regarding cars. Flooing with seven children? Arthur DOES use a car to ferry all the children to the train station, yes? JKR uses modern devices (a car) when it suits her and then abandons them when it doesn't. The series is a total mishmash of modern British culture and HP culture, IMO, and it starts getting dicey when we try to extrapolate aspects of modern British culture into our fics. If HP culture is Different, then how Different is it? Where do we draw the line between our own imagination and standard cultural mores? Case in point: I can't imagine modern wizards not using cell phones. I have incorporated cell phones in my fic and people have dinged me on it. I think they have a valid point, and yet it doesn't make sense. I want to have it both ways, and in a way I think you do. Writing on parchment with quills? This doesn't make sense but it's a lovely visual, and, as we know, JKR is nothing if not a visual writer.
As an outsider, I ask what is fair, what is foul? I want to write a fic on getting into Hogwarts. Being due deligent, do I use Eton or Harrow as a model or do I try to glean the process from the books and wing it? Is there a middle ground? As an outsider there seems to be no firm rules about what IS fair, what IS foul, which is why we have silly discussions about vernacular and where exactly to put the "fuck." Or is that period OUTSIDE of the quotation marks?
I'm not whining here, just curious. Some stories I have Brit picked, others not. It's certainly anyone's right to click away if a story doesn't suit or is wildly inaccurate (and I have a leg up--my mother is Irish, my father was Scots, and my stepfather is English). Having said that, from this side of the pond, it feels like there's something of a glass ceiling where you have Brits arguing about certain cultural aspects of an imaginary world that has one foot *firmly* in fantasy and another foot in modern British culture. So where does the fantasy world end and the real world begin? Personally, I think it's impossible to answer; it's entirely dependent on who is reading the fic. But I put this out there to convey the frustration that I feel when I read the back and forth about the pitfalls of Americans writing HP. Putting the "u" in color is easy, removing the "gots" a piece of cake. Deciding exactly how much modern British culture to incorporate into a fantasy world? I have no idea where that line is, and I don't think anyone else does either. Which is why it feels safer to me to take a majority of my cultural cues from the series as inconsistent at that world may be.
no subject
Not to mention, from book canon, that the Manor is called Malfoy Manor. Manors aren't traditionally named after their owner, the owner is named after it - Lord X of Y. It suggests a change of hands and a renaming happened at some point in the recent past.
I like writing Lucius as sophisticated, but really, I don't think it's justified by canon, and more generally the most an English person can legitimately aspire to is eccentricity.
Women may have secondary roles, though I don't agree. But even a secondary role is more than would be explained by an bringing in the C17th where women couldn't hold public office at all unless it was waiting lady to the Queen. And it's clear from the backstory / world building that witches have been able to hold such positions for a very very long time.
All things are possible if you can justify it as deriving from canon or some parallel with history. The difficulty is that the historical lens through which people view canon is so often derived from regency romances (and the least accurate ones at that). Theme park England. You can get the situation where the cues are wrong for both modern English culture and Historical English culture.
It still comes back to the point that I wear a horsehair wig.
Judges wear full bottomed wigs, and open the court sessions by carrying a posy to ward off the plague.
The Lord Mayor of London goes to see the Queen every year at the Royal Courts of Justice and tenders his fealty, picking up a blessing from the Dean of Westminster on the way, accompanied by representatives of the Twelve Great Livery companies. And he's done that since 1535. And then he goes home to oversee one of the great financial centres of the world with clever bastards selling derivatives and futures over computer screens to the rest of the world. The past and present coexist.
You may feel frustrated by people talking about the pitfalls of Americans writing HPfic... The original discussion was never intended to be prescriptive though, just illustrate some differences in approach and ideas. It could also free people from worrying about the arcana of English culture, because no one outside the UK is ever going to get the nuances of the class system, and nor should they be expected to. That would be ridiculous.
But imagine how frustrated I feel when someone tells me that an artefact of the Modern British World inexorably means that a society is backwards in some way.
If you want mobile phones for wizards, why not? You can sell it as a byproduct of an enthusiasm for all things muggleborn after the war, part of pretending that people didn't believe all that nonsense about stealing magic, honestly they didn't, why look at how fashionable this pretty fellytone is don't look too closely at what I did in the war children.
I don't see it as working with magic, but conversely I don't see it being ruled out if you have the right backstory and worldbuilding to justify it.