blamebrampton | A case in point ...

A case in point ...

So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.

Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.

And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.

I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...

Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

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Oh god no! I am in fact looking forward to reading your fic.

And I think that there is a massive difference between American writing is over-influenced by soap operas and Americans are. The former is a position I hold and would argue at length (even if some of the influence is second hand), the latter is something I would not suggest because it is not a sensible suggestion at all.

American culture as a whole is too dominated by religion, though, and I am more than happy to argue that point.

It would seem logical that if American writing is overly influenced by American soap operas, than the Americans who are doing the writing are overly influenced.

I can only describe my personal experience regarding the difference in the ways Christianity influences our different cultures. I am a coastal American, east and west, and not from the areas you broadcast on the news and in documentaries where it's all about Jesus and damnation, etc. I moved from Los Angeles -- where the companies I worked for sent out "Seasons Greetings" cards, to London, where not only did the companies I worked for send out "Happy Christmas" cards, but where I was unable to make anyone see how this was offensive to me as a non-Christian. I receive cards with Mary and Jesus on them every year from my husband's relatives. I have to defend my children against my MIL's constant attempts to talk to them about Jesus. My daughter is forcefed Christianity in school as if it's a given that she's Christian despite the large number of Muslim and non-Christian people in her school. She has to say prayers and attend Church and listen to the pastor tell her that Christmas is all about Jesus.

The only time I had to deal with that sort of thing when I was living in America was when I attended a small, private school. The public institution in which I participated in the States seemed to try quite hard to be diverse and inclusive. Whenever I try to suggest that perhaps some people aren't of Christian origin to Brits over here, I'm met with outrage and accused of being narrow minded and a killjoy.

My current take is that some British people of British decent are so immersed in their Christian culture that they take it as "normal". They don't even see the influence that religion has on their thoughts and behaviour, because they don't know any different. They've never been the odd one out or the outsider, so they don't know how irritating it is when people assume you're going to have your children Christened and try to get them into St. Mary's on the Field because they have the best OFSTED reports. :/

Of course there are plenty of Americans who have the same attitude and some who express it in much more toxic ways. I'm not one of them, however, and I know as many non-religious Americans as I do Brits and many more overtly religious Brits than I do Americans. It all depends on your personal experiences. It's the generalisations that make me itchy, especially when they don't match up to what I observe in my life.

It would seem logical that if American writing is overly influenced by American soap operas, than the Americans who are doing the writing are overly influenced.

NO IT WOULD NOT! Argh! And yes, I mean to shout at that, because it is not only illogical, it is an absolute act of rudeness to me for you to make that extrapolation. And since you are not rude as a rule, I want to get this out of the way before reading any more of your comment.

Young Adult writing is currently overly influenced by vampires. This does not make Young Adults vampires. Australian writing is over-influenced by criminal dramas, this does not make all Australians criminals (shut up Shiv, if you read this, I know exactly what you are about to say). French writing at the moment is overly influenced by philosophy, this does make all French philosophers.

If you would like me to substantiate my case that American writing is currently over influenced by soap opera I am more than happy to at great length, but first I have to go away for a few minutes and jump up and down a bit.

Language confusion all around.

No, of course not to all your examples. But extrapolating that to the original point would lead to: "Americans writers are overly influenced by soap operas, which does not make American writers soap opera characters." That's not what I was accusing you of saying. Because... duh. (To use a blatant Americanism. ;))

I was saying that claiming that American writers are overly influenced by soap operas indicates to me the belief that the minds behind American writing have absorbed the story patterns common in soap operas. And American minds = Americans.

I did watch Eastenders for quite a while when I was at university here. Maybe that's why the storytelling in Merlin went so wrong in the end? The writers watched too much Eastenders and Corrie?(joke)

fyi, on another note -- My best darkfic pals are all Brits and Europeans. Only a few are Americans.

It doesn't mean anything about minds beyond you needing to have one to care about what is seen to be popular in narrative fashions. What we see as being a proper or good story is not something that remains constant over time even within the one place, but is instead subject to change depending on the dominant tropes of a time. Shakespeare was considered partially 'unfit' for centuries in England, after all (so productions cut out the gruesome bits and gave King Lear a happy ending).

For the last decade or so, a large amount of American writing has been overly dependent on the bigger, more disastrous, more unexpected or more shocking twist that the soap opera relies on. It's a fashion, much like Justin Beiber. To my mind it's a problematic one, because the tropes of the soap opera do not lead to good story telling, which is why I wish it was not so pervasive in its influence at the moment.

That said, there are many readers who love that fashion, as the success of books I consider unreadable testifies. For my taste, the fashion of ironic class-based comedy that dominated American writing in the first half of the 20th century, and for massive themes disguised as family dramas in the 19th century are far more enjoyable and lead to stronger story telling. I firmly believe that in 100 years, Little Women will still be a classic and Twilight will have disappeared.

As to religion, there will always be a great range of personal choice, but it is publicly foregrounded in American culture in a way that it just isn't in the rest of the English-speaking world. It's not just that 55% of Americans believe in Creationism, it is the level of religious power in political decision making, from abortion and stem-cell research to the anti-NY 'mosque' movement.

Funnily enough, in fanfic this does not show up as deep discussions on personal faith, instead it usually shows up as American commenters critically zeroing in on any mention of anything religious in a fic even when at a level that is fully supported by the original text.

America does bear the tarnish of Stephanie Meyer, but we can also claim Jonathan Franzen, Donna Tartt, Annie Proulx, Dave Eggers, etc. And while the UK has Martin Amis and Ian McEwan, you've also got Freya North and her like. There are high brow and low brow writers in all cultures. There are not more low brow writers proportionally speaking in the USA than there are in the UK.

And the movies mindless disaster movies that tend to do well in the US tend to do well over here too. *cries over the death of the wonderful British film industry that was so alive and thriving when I arrived here, but is now not much more than dead*

The dumbing down of culture is a universal problem. It's not specific to Americans.

Crap writers abound, they are not my point. My point is that the tropes of soap opera are more common in American writing than in non-American writing at the moment, and that they do not have a positive influence.

If you want to debate this point, I am more than happy to.

I think we've covered all the bases at this point and I don't have the time or energy to do the research. I'm confident that there is melodramatic, unbelievable storytelling rampant in both American and British writing these days. There are American fic writers who write strong prose and beautiful stories and plenty who don't. Same goes for Brits.

Going back to the beginning, it's my opinion that whenever a person lists negative generalisations about a culture to which they don't belong they are bound to insult and/or irritate members of the maligned culture.

I've never suggested that good or bad writing is exclusive to one side of the pond or the other.

Though I would suggest that a critique of bad writing tropes in British fiction would not be read as extrapolating directly to a personal attack on the entire nation by British readers.

I am very sorry I was so cranky earlier, but that logical fallacy is one of my most hated things in the world, as it leads to all sorts of disastrous ways of thinking. Nevertheless, I was rude, and you did not deserve that at all. I apologise unreservedly for my failure in manners and hope that you won't hold it against me.

I didn't read it, BB. The conversation was starting to get stressful and exhausting for me, so I bowed out. I think we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject.

I appreciate the apology and apologise myself for my own expression of temper and poor manners.

You did -- it was my second reply to you when I shouted and arghed. I should have taken myself outside for a smacking then come back and tried again rather than pressing send. *Shakes hands and passes tea/coffee/beverage of choice.*

Being American, I never believe that honest expressions of emotion are something for which one must apologise. ;)

*chooses giant non-fat no foam latte with strawberry syrup*

*offers you a muffin*

*Buys it for you, but is unable to resist minor giggle*

When I get round to discussing it I'm going to use proper statistics because there is available data to show that overall American culture is more religious than British.

I'd argue that's your misreading of English culture. I'm an atheist and an atheist of Jewish extraction and I don't see either Easter or Christmas as being Christian. They were once but aren't now.

And you asking people to think of that as being Christian practice and therefore disrespectful of you is almost doomed to failure because it requires them to change their understanding of a non religious cultural practice to being religiously significant and to accept that you have beliefs that are important to you which is again profoundly unEnglish unless it's about football. Belief is private and should not be discussed.

I'd respect your wishes because it's polite to do so but ... I still wouldn't see a Christmas card as implying any religious belief.

otoh I have the very devil of a time getting some American flistees whether Christian or pagan to accept that I'd be awfully grateful if they wouldn't hold me in their prayers and in particular not offer me their blessings because not only am I an atheist, that assumes a hierarchical relationship with the nonexistent deity with them higher than me.

I find church schools a worry. A good education shouldn't depend on belief.

I've heard that argument a lot. I don't buy it. I still see Jesus everywhere in the media during Easter and Christmas. People may remove Jesus from them in their everyday celebrations, but they are still of Christian origin, unless you are going back centuries. The Muslim Brits I know still do not celebrate Christmas.

And I've had plenty of interesting spiritual and theological discussions with British people. I'd imagine that there are certain social segments in which discussing belief is tacky, but like American culture, British culture is diverse and so is etiquette.

State funded church schools piss me off something rotten.

I know three people who go to church in my entirest life, and everyone I know sends Christmas cards. People curtsey to the Queen, but we aint' feudal. English culture is formulaic and formal, but usually empty.

The Muslim Brits I know do send Cmas cards though.

American politics has allowed itself to be controlled to some extent by religious fundamentalists, and that has seeped through to the culture. Who are these people, and how many of them are there? I have never met a single one, though I have only lived on the east and west coasts. Even my brother and his evangelical family, despite being Biblical fundamentalists, are mostly politically liberal, and their religion doesn't allow them to participate in the political process anyway, so they're off the radar. I believe that a small number of people have amassed a great deal of money and are dominating and influencing politics.

That being said, I have seen the statistics, and yes, there are far more religious believers here than atheists/agnostics. I'm just not convinced that most are extremely religious in the way the religious right suggests the majority of this country is.

*Note:probably won't be able to respond to this in real time!*

I agree with you that the average American is more likely to have a liberal attitude even if they are a strong religious believer, which is one of the reasons I am consistently incensed by the political power wielded by a religious minority in the US.

Things do not look to improve in the next two years, alas.

"Who are these people..." Ah, good question. I have known quite a few. There are enclaves even in Seattle, and many in the rural areas and small towns of Washington, but they're pretty marginal in large cities.

The Bible Belt however has been taken out a few more notches. Evangelicals have learned not to say "Catholics and Christians" in public, but that this is a common phrase will show just how... daunting discussion can be. Because I was active in the peace movement much of my life, I had a positive attitude toward Christians, who tended to make up a large part of peace and pacifist movements and are willing to go to jail for them.

Then I moved to Iowa, and found that I'd been cloistered.Where fundamentalist Christians are in the majority, they're more like Atwood's Handmaid's Tale and a lot less like MLK (who was also an evangelical). It's the second strain: our history is on one side a tale of poor but honest farmers who took their guns and defended their land; on t'other one of waves of immigrants enriching the cities in every way. That struggle exists beneath every surface conflict to this day: Frontier or City of Gold?

Well said (and pretty scary that there actually are people like in The Handmaid's Tale!). I think I've been cloistered too - only lived in large cities on the east and west coast. You've given me a lot of food for thought.

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A case in point ...

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Religious mysteries

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