blamebrampton | A case in point ...

So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.

Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.

And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.

I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...

Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

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It would seem logical that if American writing is overly influenced by American soap operas, than the Americans who are doing the writing are overly influenced.

NO IT WOULD NOT! Argh! And yes, I mean to shout at that, because it is not only illogical, it is an absolute act of rudeness to me for you to make that extrapolation. And since you are not rude as a rule, I want to get this out of the way before reading any more of your comment.

Young Adult writing is currently overly influenced by vampires. This does not make Young Adults vampires. Australian writing is over-influenced by criminal dramas, this does not make all Australians criminals (shut up Shiv, if you read this, I know exactly what you are about to say). French writing at the moment is overly influenced by philosophy, this does make all French philosophers.

If you would like me to substantiate my case that American writing is currently over influenced by soap opera I am more than happy to at great length, but first I have to go away for a few minutes and jump up and down a bit.

Language confusion all around.

No, of course not to all your examples. But extrapolating that to the original point would lead to: "Americans writers are overly influenced by soap operas, which does not make American writers soap opera characters." That's not what I was accusing you of saying. Because... duh. (To use a blatant Americanism. ;))

I was saying that claiming that American writers are overly influenced by soap operas indicates to me the belief that the minds behind American writing have absorbed the story patterns common in soap operas. And American minds = Americans.

I did watch Eastenders for quite a while when I was at university here. Maybe that's why the storytelling in Merlin went so wrong in the end? The writers watched too much Eastenders and Corrie?(joke)

fyi, on another note -- My best darkfic pals are all Brits and Europeans. Only a few are Americans.

It doesn't mean anything about minds beyond you needing to have one to care about what is seen to be popular in narrative fashions. What we see as being a proper or good story is not something that remains constant over time even within the one place, but is instead subject to change depending on the dominant tropes of a time. Shakespeare was considered partially 'unfit' for centuries in England, after all (so productions cut out the gruesome bits and gave King Lear a happy ending).

For the last decade or so, a large amount of American writing has been overly dependent on the bigger, more disastrous, more unexpected or more shocking twist that the soap opera relies on. It's a fashion, much like Justin Beiber. To my mind it's a problematic one, because the tropes of the soap opera do not lead to good story telling, which is why I wish it was not so pervasive in its influence at the moment.

That said, there are many readers who love that fashion, as the success of books I consider unreadable testifies. For my taste, the fashion of ironic class-based comedy that dominated American writing in the first half of the 20th century, and for massive themes disguised as family dramas in the 19th century are far more enjoyable and lead to stronger story telling. I firmly believe that in 100 years, Little Women will still be a classic and Twilight will have disappeared.

As to religion, there will always be a great range of personal choice, but it is publicly foregrounded in American culture in a way that it just isn't in the rest of the English-speaking world. It's not just that 55% of Americans believe in Creationism, it is the level of religious power in political decision making, from abortion and stem-cell research to the anti-NY 'mosque' movement.

Funnily enough, in fanfic this does not show up as deep discussions on personal faith, instead it usually shows up as American commenters critically zeroing in on any mention of anything religious in a fic even when at a level that is fully supported by the original text.

America does bear the tarnish of Stephanie Meyer, but we can also claim Jonathan Franzen, Donna Tartt, Annie Proulx, Dave Eggers, etc. And while the UK has Martin Amis and Ian McEwan, you've also got Freya North and her like. There are high brow and low brow writers in all cultures. There are not more low brow writers proportionally speaking in the USA than there are in the UK.

And the movies mindless disaster movies that tend to do well in the US tend to do well over here too. *cries over the death of the wonderful British film industry that was so alive and thriving when I arrived here, but is now not much more than dead*

The dumbing down of culture is a universal problem. It's not specific to Americans.

Crap writers abound, they are not my point. My point is that the tropes of soap opera are more common in American writing than in non-American writing at the moment, and that they do not have a positive influence.

If you want to debate this point, I am more than happy to.

I think we've covered all the bases at this point and I don't have the time or energy to do the research. I'm confident that there is melodramatic, unbelievable storytelling rampant in both American and British writing these days. There are American fic writers who write strong prose and beautiful stories and plenty who don't. Same goes for Brits.

Going back to the beginning, it's my opinion that whenever a person lists negative generalisations about a culture to which they don't belong they are bound to insult and/or irritate members of the maligned culture.

I've never suggested that good or bad writing is exclusive to one side of the pond or the other.

Though I would suggest that a critique of bad writing tropes in British fiction would not be read as extrapolating directly to a personal attack on the entire nation by British readers.

I am very sorry I was so cranky earlier, but that logical fallacy is one of my most hated things in the world, as it leads to all sorts of disastrous ways of thinking. Nevertheless, I was rude, and you did not deserve that at all. I apologise unreservedly for my failure in manners and hope that you won't hold it against me.

I didn't read it, BB. The conversation was starting to get stressful and exhausting for me, so I bowed out. I think we just aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject.

I appreciate the apology and apologise myself for my own expression of temper and poor manners.

You did -- it was my second reply to you when I shouted and arghed. I should have taken myself outside for a smacking then come back and tried again rather than pressing send. *Shakes hands and passes tea/coffee/beverage of choice.*

Being American, I never believe that honest expressions of emotion are something for which one must apologise. ;)

*chooses giant non-fat no foam latte with strawberry syrup*

*offers you a muffin*

*Buys it for you, but is unable to resist minor giggle*

A case in point ...

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