AV/Preferential voting

[blamebrampton]

Life is still chaos. HOWEVER, in the interests of accuracy, I need to make a short post on AV for the Britflist.

'Australians' DO NOT want to get rid of AV, and there is not a massive move to 'go back' to life before AV.

For a start, there are very few 114-year-old Australian voters. AV has been in place here since 1918. The 'going back' idea is a fiction.

There was a poll taken that came out with more Australian voters in favour of FPTP than AV, however, the poll itself is pretty bloody questionable -- for a start its main question asks about hypothetical perfect models rather than saying: 'do you like the way we vote in Australia, or would you rather vote the way people vote in the UK/US?'

This was an intentional decision as the people who commissioned the vote were a think tank who are in favour of FPTP voting. Now, people commission dodgy polls all the time. That's fine, I'd probably do the same if I thought I could get linked-up cycleways in Sydney through. But it's a CRAP reason for someone to vote no in the UK.

Vote no if you believe in the No case, absolutely.

But in Australia, people are by and large very happy with the way we vote, even if it ends up with comedy parliaments like our current one. The people who are actually against AV are politicians who have lost out because of it (most recently the local BNP-like lupin) and people who find it annoying to have to number a ballot one to eight. In the UK, with non-compulsory voting, this second set could stay home and rest their delicate wrists.

For a clear and concise history of how AV has affected results in Australian federal elections, check out the excellent Anthony Green here.

Make up your own minds, but don't for a moment swallow the 'The Aussies hate it!' line. Oh, and you can safely ignore the 'It's really hard!' line, too. FFS, Australians can do it!

Comments

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

FPTP just saddled Canada with a conservative majority in Parliament for the next 4 years, even though well over 50% of the population did NOT vote for the Tories.

Where do I sign up to vote "yes to AV" for Canada? :|

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I read that Harper won in my v quick perusal of the world this week (and let me tell you, this has been the WRONG week to have to scan the news!) and just could not work out how that happened. Did he buy everyone a puppy?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Harper is a cat person. It's the only thing I like about him.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

He wooed you all with LOLcats?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Well he didn't woo me at all but his family does foster kittens for the Humane Society.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I think it was a combination of things, but chiefly, the Liberal Party made a SPECTACULAR failure of itself (its leader in particular). A lot of the Liberal voters defecting to the NDP as a result (to the point that the NDP is now in official opposition instead of being a distant third), and the left-leaning votes therefore split to the point that it allowed the Tories to take the lead even in ridings thought "safe" for the Liberals. My riding has been red (with the same MP) since 1993, yet on Monday he lost spectacularly not just to the PC candidate but also to the NDP one.

A number of Liberal voters simply refused to vote at all since they couldn't in good conscience vote red (seriously, the Liberals are a disaster.)

I also think that Osama bin Laden's death announcement was a tiny contributing factor -- I think many who were on the fence, particularly in affluent white liberal areas saw the news and decided that the military spending in Harper's platform is a splendid idea after all.

Seriously, Toronto went blue. Toronto. Jesus wept.

[why-am-i.livejournal.com]

That makes no sense! Abstaining from a vote because you think your preferred party sucks is actually defaulting to supporting all the other parties that you disagree with more. Politics should not be about choosing the best candidate, but rather about choosing the least bad one. Abstaining strikes me as a very stupid thing to do. It's politics! There is no perfect candidate! Then again, I grew up under a compulsory voting system, and I like it that way.

...hi. I'm an Aussie. I like AV. AV lets you have input into the political discussion. It occassionally has its down side, but for the most part? It's the best system available, in my opinion. (Sorry I jumped on your comment without introducing myself properly.)

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the "I'm not voting since I can't vote for the party I like without feeling bad" is really not an acceptable position to me, especially not from fellow liberals in a country where there are three "known" parties with socially (and, to varying degrees, fiscally) liberal platforms. Yeah, a vote for, say, the Green Party may be "wasted" in the "that one MP can't possibly win" sense, but in the end the numbers will speak for themselves even if they don't lead to personal accomplishment by any particular member of parliament.

I really, really love the idea of AV and think it would fit our multi-party system very well. But our fearless Tory leaders are hell-bent on convincing us (and our esteemed southern neighbours) that we are JUST like the USA, except our liberal/conservative colours are switched from theirs. At least the good thing that came out of this year's election was that we very clearly proved we are not like the USA, seeing as we have a new opposition party that is neither red nor blue.

(And I got that you meant the general you, no worries. :))

[why-am-i.livejournal.com]

Er... and by "you", I did not mean you specifically. Sorry if I came across as rude! I was referring to the people you mentioned in your comment.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Both BC and Ontario have had referenda on alternative voting methods. In both cases citizen panels proposed a hybrid list system as superior to AV, with which I concur. In both cases indifference, ignorance and scaremongering by the right wing press led to narrow rejection.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

indifference, ignorance and scaremongering by the right wing press
Just like pretty much every other vote we've ever had. Oh, Canada. :|

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

I also suspect that AV wouldn't have changed the result much. With the Liberals running third in so many places it's quite possible that Liberal second preferences would have gone to the Tories in sufficient numbers to push their candidates past 50%.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I don't think that's true. The NDP's new status seems pretty much proof positive to me that a very significant proportion of defecting Liberals went with the NDP, not the Tories.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

But that's not necessarily a good predictor of where the remaining Liberal vote would have gone. I think it's clear that in a significant number of Ontario seats the Liberals would have defeated the Tories under AV by virtue of NDP second preferences but I'm not convinced it would have helped in seats where the Libs came third.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

I think platform policies are generally fairly good predictors of how someone will vote -- the NDP and Liberals are obviously hardly the same party but both platforms emphasise similar issues (many of which are completely absent from the Tory platform). I haven't done any wider research but just in my riding, which does have Liberals in third now, the PC candidate got about the same number of votes as in 2008 (up by just 1K); the Liberal incumbent's votes dropped by 6K, and the NDP dude gained close to 14K. If that doesn't indicate a Liberal -> NDP shift, which I think it clearly does, it certainly does not indicate a Liberal -> PC shift, either.

(Though of course with something like AV, hardline partisan voters would deliberately rank their most hated parties last instead of looking at platforms like they're supposed to, which would see a lot of Green/Marxist/Pirate/etc second/third/fourth choices. :|)