blamebrampton | AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGH!

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGH!

Two HP questions, one polite, one ranty.

To begin with the polite:
Do HP werewolves keep their clothes when they transform, as animagi do? I can't for the life of me recall and the bookshelves are all mid-shift, with PoA under a stack of YA fiction.

To move onto the ranty:
What the HELL are some writers thinking when they write sexual assault as a consequence-free piece of erotic interaction? I can't read this shit. Because I sit there wanting to slap the author.

Note that this is not the same as saying I can't read stories that contain sexual violence. I can, and have, both novels and fic, and some have been excellent. But there is a cost for sexual violence. Hell, even Margaret Mitchell has Rhett Butler consumed with guilt in Gone With the Wind after he drags Scarlett upstairs for a right good rogering while she punches him. There is always a cost.

Why do I rant thusly? Because I have been listening to Shiv and reading the odd spot of het. But, idiotically, not Shiv's own witty and urbane stories. Here's a tip, kids. Have one more Hermione being 'put in her place' with someone's penis and it's very likely you'll find me on your doorstep holding the shattered remains of your letterbox and using them to wedge the door open while I lecture you on why this is not now and never will be a valid authorial gambit.

I am trying to work out some way of addressing this with the writer that doesn't begin with: FEMINISM, it's not just a course at university! HUMAN RIGHTS, not just a T-shirt!

I'm going to stay safely here in the happy little slightly angsty but with authorial acknowledgement that there are prices to be paid gay part of fandom, thanks. Because I will probably be arrested otherwise.

ETA: I should clarify that I am not talking about BD/SM stories, which I am actually fine with. I can even kind of live with the rape fantasy stories where she wants to be dominated (while secretly whispering "It's okay to want to have sex! And it's also okay if you want to be tied up!" at the screen). I am talking about stories where characters are intentionally sexually degraded for no narrative purpose other some alleged titilation.

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Hermione does seem to be a handy target, especially in Snape or Draco fics, although Lucius gets his bit from time to time. Maybe it's the 'we don't really like smart girls, especially when they get to be besties with the heroes' thing?

I think it almost equates to the outpourings of genuine venom at the poor girl who was cast to play Cho Chang - which I thought was appalling.

There are definitely 'rape fics' which are written as expressions of sexual fantasy - and then there are genuine sexual abuse stories - and yes, I think there is a difference. I would take a lot of words to totally fail to express what I think it is - or maybe the difference only exists in my head. Who knows?

But I don't think the objection to abuse without consequence is even a feminist argument - because I feel just as strongly about it regardless of the sex of the victim. Then again, I can read the odd erotic 'rape fic' and really enjoy it. I'm not sure if that makes me a sad case or just hopelessly complex?

*hugs and offers tea and cake*

I hate when Hermione somehow needs to be 'put in her place' at all! Hermione is a STRONG character. She isn't a fluffy Mary Sue or a snarly bitch. She doesn't need 'fixing'.

I really do love a good Lucius/Hermione and I have a soft spot for Lucius/Hermione/Snape... but that corner of fandom is very scary place to poke your head in. Lumione is a mine field of non-con that is dealt with flippantly. ::squicks::

I understand your pain and nod to your rant.

Oooh, this is a tricky one. Are you talking about rape-fic-as-pure-porn, or poorly handled rape within a fic that tries to be something more? Or do you not distinguish between the two?

A fairly large proportion of fan-fic is porn. Consequence free rape is something of a porn fantasy staple - I don't think there's much chance of that changing any time soon. It's pretty prevalent in most cross-gen fandoms, whether they are het or slash.

It makes me feel damn uncomfortable, but what can you do. It seems to be fairly deeply ingrained in the collective erotic psyche.

Just stick to Shiv's fics if you're reading het. You'll never be sorry, and her loveable sod of a Snape is to die for. There are a few other reliable authors but their names escape me.

Violence without consequence is nothing but exploitation. I couldn't imagine writing a dark fic without showing the toll that violence takes on the people involved, attacker and victim alike.

Question 1: Even if HP canon says they do, they don't. It's a condition caused by an infection of body fluids, not laundry detergent. ;)

Question 2: THANK YOU! Thank you! Thank you! I feel your pain/rage.

I loathe that "put in her place" attitude. And rape as romance makes me physically ill. Grrr! Especially to Hermione. She's plain and bookish and the caught in a foreign world that either condescends to, or hates, her. She makes a place for herself against all odds.

It's like people smell vulnerability and attack. No second thoughts. Has empathy become a cheesy, retro artifact, like lava lamp and black light posters?

1. Shoebox authors Jaida and Rave have Remus naked after transformation. If the werewolf removes his/her clothes beforehand, and if he stays in the same place, and doesn't try to tear those clothes in the middle of the night, then his clothes will still be there to change back into in the morning. But if he is wearing them mid-transformation, the clothes get torn to shreds. Pretty sure they would have done their homework. But I am not quoting canon here.

2. I think it is believable that an independent strong character (or real person) would have a fantasy life where she seeks to be put in her place or bossed around or even degraded. I don't know that I see Hermione that way, but I do see it as a possibility, depending on how she is written as an adult, that she would be drawn to a powerful man who dominated her IN BED. I think it is way OOC that she would be drawn to someone who dominated her in other ways, however.

And I think, more to your point, that this kind of domination-in-bed relationship has consequences and that a character as smart as Hermione wouldn't allow the relationship without addressing them.

Getting to some of the other commenters' points, (somewhat) complicit rape fantasies do have their place. And also, I agree with Raitala that perhaps an author has a fantasy where a smart, independent female character WANTS to be slapped around without consequences--as though the consequences would be dealt with privately and not interfere with the crazy sexin'. Not true to life, but that may be where it comes from in fic. I would be much more likely to belive this of Hermione if she has been abused in the past, or if she had a father figure who she could never please, etc. All the Snape/Hemione people WISH she had an authoritarian or absent father to make their stories more likely.

One person who does that pairing and other good het and slash pairings well is Arsenic. Here is one of her Snape/Hermiones. She finds a way to escape the "I love to be yelled at by my old, angry professor" cliche. (Not that I haven't found that particular cliche hot at times. It worked for me for a few stories and then I was done.)
http://tasteofpoison.inkubation.net/viewstory.php?sid=159

I personally prefer her gorgeous h/d Comfort Food, which I know I've seen on people's rec lists before. But her Hermione stuff and other pairings (even a very nice Snape/Draco/Harry, which I would have thought I'd never like) is quite good (if a little long at times).

Lastly--Didn't Calanthe have a reversal of power fic featuring Lucius and Hermione?

*stuffs cookie in your mouth*

*puts you in your place*

Edited 2008-08-08 15:12 (UTC)

I hope their writing will get better soon. Perhaps I should send a card?

"Unfortunately, I was unable to properly appreciate your story because I read the erotica as Hermione being 'put in her place' through rape. While it is possible for me to enjoy pieces with sexual violence, those pieces always show the cost of these actions. I feel that sexual violence should be treated with care and compassion even in fiction, rather than used as an authorial gambit."

Do HP werewolves keep their clothes when they transform

Ahaha! I think JKR omitted to describe whether or not they lose their clothes - which should point you to the right direction. The books, I think, say that werewolves are like real wolves (according to the lexicon: A werewolf can be distinguished from a true wolf physically by several small distinguishing characteristics, including the pupils of the eyes, snout shape, and tufted tail.), not anthropomorphic like in the movie, and have mostly the mind of an animal, so I doubt that clothes would stay on them for long even if the transformation didn't rip them apart. Fanfic also seems to follow this - I've never read one in which a werewolf would have transformed like an Animagus. (yes, yes, I know it is a bad idea to take fanfic as basis for anything; they also think Draco is a potions genius. *cough*) And it wouldn't make sense with "Muggle" logic, since it is a disease/curse in his blood, not Transfiguration (except if it is on a cellular level). Btw, try asking

canon_evidence. (I've asked them a question about werewolves once, but it didn't involve clothing.)

Ugh I knew there was a reason I don't read het. But you have to admit that Snape does "put Hermione in her place" pretty frequently in the books without any consequence for him. And that's not even just bad writing just JKR's choice of characterisation, and I actually like her for that. OTOH, Snape's or Hermione's privates never figured into that.

You know, having just written an essay on HP werewolves you'd think I'd know the answer, but it hadn't occurred to me to check. It also doesn't appear to have occurred to Rowling - she's very cagey about the three transformations at the beginning of Ch 20 of PoA. Remus and Sirius just get covered in fur - no mention of clothes. The only hint is "Harry saw [Pettigrew's] bald tail whip through the manacle on Ron's outstretched arm."

Take your choice...

As for 'healing/titillating rape fic - you would think that anyone with the imagination to write fanfic (or any fic) would think this stuff through. But, alas, apparently not.

I suspect there are a (miniscule number) of rape-fics which are written from experience, and possibly as a catharsis, but that's no excuse for people with no imagination jumping on the bandwaggon.

And now you've made me rant too.

Goes and re-reads Miserable Bastards.

Unfortunately, Rape Fics, as they are called are extremely popular with some women (and I suppose some men too). They don't have any relationship to real reality because the fantasy from which they spring doesn't have any relationship with reality.

You are abolutely right that they are annoying (and one of the reasons I stay away from Het, though you do see some gratuitous rape in slash too). I am not talking about the kind of story where rape is going on but does have consequences but the kind that does not.

I dislike the idea of the "proper place" part most of all. Do people secretly want to return to the days of barefoot and pregnant? Yuck.

But, I do think at least some of it springs from sexual fantasy just like the bodice rippers of the 70's and 80's did and I used to get very angry when the male character would be so mean to the female character and she'd be all "I looove you," *clings to ankle*

Ew.

I digress. But basically, what you said, though I don't think there's anything wrong with sexual fantasy, itself, per se.

PS. I always assumed that the clothes changed with them but I don't think it was ever clearly stated one way or the other. Maybe JKR didn't want us to think about werewolves with no clothes on.

Oh, come now Brammers - OF COURSE strong women need to be humiliated into their place. What is a penis for if not for smacking smart, opinionated girls in the face until they accept their proper role in relationships/society?

Sometimes, it is hard to reconcile feminism and the fandom. I've been trying recently. It's actually much easier to do it with slash - I have a whole Foucault-inspired theory on why women like slash beyond the whole "two men fucking is hot" part. I have enough issues with how JKR writes girls and women, I think it's have to gauge my eyes out if I start reading the het and have to deal with the stuff you're talking about.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - there's nothing wrong with rape fantasies but there's a difference between a pure fantasy and stories that reflect oppressive cultural discourses about women's sexuality. It becomes even more confused by the fact that our own thoughts and feelings are so shaped by our culture that as authors, we might not even know we are reinforcing dangerous ideas, that our fantasies have been given to us by a culture that doesn't WANT powerful women who own their own sexuality and desires. And that's not even addressing the differences in readers' interpretations of the actual intent/meaning behind things.

Honestly, this is why I just avoid non-con and dub-con - my threshold is lower than many people's AND I tend to think it actually matters. But, as I have proven in the past, I am a humourless feminist. Grrr.

I'm a bit late to the rant, but must tell you that I might just love you a bit for this post.

*smishes*

I'm sorry dear, would you like a new chapter of Miserable Bastards to take the taste away.

You should know that if it made me hide under a rock for a week it was going to be baaaad.

And lo, it was beyond bad and seriously fucked up, and the next person who tells me she's not that bad a writer... gets the defriend button.

In my last college class, one woman did a presentation on romance novels- another genre written mostly by women for women. She examined the frequency of violence- I remember kidnapping and rape coming up specifically. An astonishing percetage featured the male lead raping the female lead (while they were/leading to them falling in love). There was much class discussion and someone posited an interesting idea:

Perhaps, because sexual violence against women is so prevelent in our society, women romanticize (note I didn't use eroticize) rape as an attempt to take some control over it? And/or as a pallative? I'm not sure I agree, but the thought stuck.

I have so much to say on the ranty question, and it's such a mess of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hate, hate, HATE! I love Hermione/Lucius, just as I love Harry/Lucius, but it's this scary place of hip-deep pointless, unexplainable, nerve-wracking rape-fic that ends in flowers and fluff and gets me physically sick. Where do these people grow up, how are they brought up, what sort of brain thinks it's okay?!

... ahem.

Moving on. I distinctly remember fics where werewolf transformation came along with cracking bones, flying buttons and general clothes-wrecking. I can also recall stories where the transformation back to human happened in a room with people, and there was no... indecency involved. I think it's never mentioned in the original books, and is it even addressed in the films? Pretty much I'd say it is as you want it to be.

Question 1 - In my personal canon, you lose your clothes every time you cast a spell, so definitely yes.

Question 2 - I cannot begin to fathom half of this fandom's attitude to rape, except that maybe it's a consequence of being brought up on those dreadful het romance novels which ingrain the notion that rape is a solid foundation for love. Anyway, *gives sympathy and chocolate*

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