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blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2009-02-26 07:32 pm
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On Sirius Black ...

One of the interesting people on my flist began a cool discussion on Sirius Black over at her journal. Alas, it's flocked (which is a shame, because there are some fascinating views), and so I don't want to go into much detail on the specifics. In fact, if it wasn't a common position in fandom, I'd not touch it. But it is, so although that person and others who know her know will be going 'a-Ha!'*, everyone else can just read this as another Brammers raves at length post. 

The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.

Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'

She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.

And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.

To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.

When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.

Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.

And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.

To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.

But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.

Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.

To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?

What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.

Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.

What Sirius is, is a hater.

He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).

Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.

What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.


*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)


[identity profile] pir8fancier.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 05:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, did misinterpret that! Time to put on glasses. Oh yes, I can see clearly now.

Having just suffered through one child in high school and another on the way up, I see the dynamics of people like Sirus and James far too closely. Bullying is part of the culture. In fact, there was one girl I know who wasn't really friends with my daughter but she knew her well and liked her. You'd think she was the elitist dream: blonde, parents rich, drop-dead gorgeous, and yet she didn't play the elistist card, and while her credentials ensured she was in the elistist crowd, they didn't treat her very nicely.

I can think of two reasons (aside from slashy ones) why Sirius and James would target Snape. For Sirius, Snape was not enamoured of him (like everyone else seemed to be) AND as much as Sirius denied all his aristo trappings, he ACTED like an aristo and expected homage. Snape always told him to fuck himself. Which Sirius, by virtue of his upbringing, would find hard-pressed to accept. A little guttersnipe like Snape telling him where to get off. Not bloodly likely! Of course, in James' case, it was that Snape had Lily's ear (up to a certain point) and James did not. I always got the impression that everyone pretty much fawned over Sirius and James to a disgusting extent. It seems that Snape was one of the few of his generation (and the only one we see) who basically says, "You are first-class wankers, go to hell."

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 05:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that's a really plausible reading!

Snape is one of those characters that I am still really feeling my way around. Nothing about him is simple, though I always knew he was playing the long game for the Order. I never guessed just how damaging that game would be, though!

I should read some of your Snape, will add it to the list!

[identity profile] pir8fancier.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 05:41 pm (UTC)(link)
If I were going to suggest the fic that features the most interesting (and, in fact, I think is ENTIRELY probable--perversion aside) explanation for why Sirius fed Snape to Remus it's in "This Boy's Life." It's sort of shocking how close I got to the what JKR eventually wrote (aside from the slashy bits). It also gives a pretty damning, but again, reasonable explanation why Dumbledore did nothing after Sirius' attempt to murder Snape, why Snape decamped to Voldemort, and why Snape came back to the fold.

http://pir8fancier.nfshost.com/index_files/Page4545.htm

This fic has a twisted, little voyeur thing going on here, but it's integral to the story (as in blackmail of a sort) but Harry is of age so it's not *that* perverted. Snape is Scherazad.

[identity profile] northern-rain.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I found this really interesting, so thanks for posting. I've never really thought about Sirius that deeply myself, partly because I'm clearly far too shallow, and partly because I've always found him incredibly hard to get a handle on, largely because, I suppose, we see him through Harry's eyes. I found the inconsistencies, or blatant hypocrisy in him rather maddening, but was equally frustrated that Harry failed to see this.

[identity profile] salixbabylon.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmmm - very thought-provoking. I've always had mixed feelings about Sirius and really enjoyed reading your views this morning. Thanks for tkaing the time to post. :)

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Nah, you see you missed the important issue. Black is not a blond cock, and therefore is unworthy of porn.

Also, at age 11 Snapey hasn't signed up for the Death eaters so Sirius' bullying has little to do with that and everything to do with Sirius being a cock.

[identity profile] romaine24.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I admit it, I adore Sirius. I have from the beginning. Was he an arse at Hogwarts? Probably. I could easily see why he would detest Snape. Snape is latching onto the things that Sirius is rebelling against.

What we are told in canon about the Marauders mainly comes from Snape's POV. And remember, that scene was Snape's worst memory. Maybe I'm a gullible person but to condemn one man for some incidents (horrible as they were) in his teenage years is odd. I think I've lived with and have troubled teenagers in my family to have this understanding.

But also in his teenage years he embraced a werewolf, so much so that he and James and eventually Peter learned one of the most difficult spells to support their furry friend. He was kicked out of his own home for his beliefs. I believe Snape had the love of his mother, I don't think Sirius did. I have no doubts that Sirius would have sacrificed his life if he remained the Secret Keeper.

And what drew Sirius (Padfoot) out of Azkaban? Believing that his godson was in danger. Not only that but he once again sacrificed his life for the cause. He didn't need to stay in Grimmauld. He chose to stay there to help. He could have stayed on the run. And good God why condemn him for hating Kreacher. I'm sure Kreacher, being his mother's house-elf, caused him great harm in watching over everything he did and then embracing the pureblood beliefs of the Black family.

As someone said either in this post or the other, I admire JKR for killing off Sirius. For two years Harry had someone who was totally dedicated to him and his welfare.

Sirius was off, but who wouldn't be, but he never wavered in his belief against the Dark Arts and pureblood supremacy or his loyalty to his friends.

BTW: My honest guess is that the backstory for why Sirius wanted to feed Snape to Remus was over Regulus.

[identity profile] noeon.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the Mitford parallel is PERFECT because you see children from the same family end up on vastly different sides. And the parents march on blythely through it. It works not only for the Black family, but also more generally for the polarising environment around Voldemort.

[identity profile] joanwilder.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, AHAAAA! No, he hates Severus because he was weaker and Sirius, being a bully, could smell blood in the water. Bullies always go after the most rewarding targets. Sirius is a cock.

[identity profile] noeon.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
The past view of Sirius is a little flat as [livejournal.com profile] pir8fancier pointed out. He and James are both teaching models of the idea that Good People Do Bad Things. Or Did. I think he can neither be exempted from charges of having bullied, nor do I see him as The Bully Typified. I think he was probably a spoiled, confused, callous, and situationally mean kid, as well as a loyal friend and a brave companion in difficult times.

He meets the hair fetish criteria, too. If dark hair is allowed.
arcanetrivia: a light purple swirl on a darker purple background (sirius (lookin' sirius))

[personal profile] arcanetrivia 2009-02-26 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
And all of this is a big part of why I love Severus/Sirius fic. :)

He is a cock.

Oh my yes. But I say this with affection. :)

[identity profile] frantic-mice.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I kind of always secretly liekd him but. Yeah, I seen peeps in my flist be all OMG!HE SUXERS! and I was liek. Hmmm. Well. Yes. But so does Draco in his own blondie way. Draco is as much a bully to certain peeps as Sirius was. AND! I dunno why but it bothers me a bit that peeps tend to me all Judgey McJudge on peeps they don't like all all APOLOGIA ROMANTICA NUMERO DEUX with peeps they do like for whatever blond reason. Sux. BUT! There are also those who have been bullied. I was bullied for a little while. ACTUALLIES for a LONG while and then in High School I started speaking up for myself but in a FUNNIEH way and peeps started leaving me ALONES! but the thing is. Which is weird. A guy I went to High with came up to me once and asked me why I had hated him. I COULDN'T believe it. @ the tiem I thought 1) I'm just defending mahself 2) I'm doing it in mah funnieh crack harmless way. BUT! this guy remembered it differently and it totes hurt him to the point where he thought HATE was involved. CRAZY! but it gives me a rly interesante perspective on the bully-victim thinger cause I guess I been both. Kinda. =/

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
*beady eyes*
I can hear you, you know?

Actually, I will concede that Toreth is a step removed from my usual preference for supercilious, aristocratic, arrogant, ice-cold, Malfoy bastards and the odd supercilious, arrogant, ice-cold Snape.

However, and I hope you are sitting comfortably, there are pronounced differences between the ravishing Toreth and that cock, Black. Firstly I should point out that I do simply think he is a cock and not anything more vile. He is a jock bully at school and so is James. James is also a cock but doesn't attract my significant ire because he is too bloody boring to focus on for more than a passing second and because everyone else evidently also finds him pretty boring. Sirius gets on my wick because of the large number of people who are under the misapprehension that he is not an utterly predictable, privileged, pouty-faced, petty-rebel. I personally do not find the 'Mummy, Daddy, I hate you, I'm going to run off and join the International Brigade' sufficiently attractive to make up for the significant irritation factor of the old predictable 'if your a goody then you didn't really mean to kill anyone when you sicced your werewolf friend on a fellow class-mate' routine.

There is a different between someone who is an upper-class rebel with an unshakable believe that they are on some level untouchable, resulting in an arrogant disregard for other people (Sirus); someone who is an arrogant, upper-class conformist, brought up not to think and not to give a fuck for anyone weaker than himself (Draco) and someone whose arrogance and ferocity is born of the deep seated knowledge, ingrained since early childhood, that there is nothing and no one that will look after him and no meaning to human interaction beyond standing on the weaker fuckers to keep your head above water (Toreth). Perhaps this simply means that Black isn't psychotic enough to make his personality disorder endearing?

I don't find his death particularly tragic. But then, I am in a foul mood, could you tell? He'd lost any chance of redeeming the crappy job he'd made of his adolescence when he was thrown in jail. What use was he going to be to anyone fucked up as his was, with the judgement of a 16 year-old and the reflexes of someone who's spent years in a damp dark cell. Honestly, Bellatrix was as mad as a box of bees, even Mother Molly Weasley could take her out.

There, I'd better stop before i irrevocably offend all my friends. *horse stable door etc.*




[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh I never read Severus as being weak. From the time we meet the funny-looking gawky kid in the smock, that kid has a strategy and the will to implement it.

But then I read the whole feeding him to the wolf thing as revenge for feeding Regulus to Voldemort, so I may have over-thought the whole thing.

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Well said that man!

[identity profile] inamac.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
One day I will finish that 'Classist, not racist' essay.

Thank you. he's a Malayan Fishing Owl, and he really belongs to my Ace of Wands fandom, but gets trotted out for Potterstuff when I do not have an available character icon.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
I completely agree. When I was writing Of Great Price, everything hinged on Regulus. Even feeding Severus to a wolf kind of made sense after Severus had fed Regulus to Voldemort.

And yes, he gets out of Azkaban with the ability to still make the odd joke, how rare is that? It's not until he is locked up again that he really sours.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 10:48 pm (UTC)(link)
First thing Snape says in front of them is that he wants to be in Slytherin, the house that Sirius identifies with the Blood Pure loonies he's related to. It's like a stiff-armed salute, innocent though he may have meant it.

[identity profile] romaine24.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm even more curious as to all of the James hate.

I know a lot of people are not looking forward to JKR's encyclopedia but if it has Marauder history in it I would love it.

When I first starting reading fanfic it was mainly Marauder fanfic. I think it was because I was older that I was drawn to the older characters. I've always loved Harry, but I prefer reading and writing about him as an adult. (with the exception of canon).

Now I'm going to have to set some time away to read your story. *g*

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
It's all right, I agree with pretty much every character flaw you list above. I just find them somewhat interesting rather than utterly tedious. Predictable, yes, and he's not half the turn my back on my roots and make a success of it rebel that Andromeda Tonks is ...

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Phew, I thought I might have been a bit too ranty - crappy day.

he's not half the turn my back on my roots and make a success of it rebel that Andromeda Tonks is
Dead right. I don't think anyone would ever describe Ted Tonks as a trophy-fuck. It's not the rebellion so much as the 'do these leather trousers make me look rakish while I rebel' cockery that, as I might have mentioned, rubs me up the wrong way. Could you get more showy, teen, fuck-you-I-won't-do-what-you-tell-me, than taking up with a homosexual werewolf?

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey, there you are! No need to ask you then, since you're eavesdropping on our _very_private_ conversation. ;)

There's no denying that Sirius and James were shits at Hogwarts, and that Remus was a cowardly shit, too. I'm not that fussed about James either, but both Sirius and Remus really appeal to me. I have RL friends who've done shitty things, hell, I've done shitty things myself, and while I can certainly wish those things weren't in our pasts it doesn't make me love my friends less. That's kind of how I feel about Sirius too - I just _like_ him, and so I'm willing to look past the fact that he is indeed a cock.

The tragedy of the Marauders to me, including Sirius, is that echo they give of the pre-WWI, and also pre-WWII, generations. Both wars were preceeded by periods of such hope and improvement, and then you have all that potential just wasted by war. It resonates with me on some deep level, I think (which reminds me that I must get around to scrounging up some money to send to relief organisations working in, say, the Congo ... I really should put my money where my mouth is.) Anyway, that's why his story reads so tragic to me; he's the embodiment of most of the ills - he's the one who has to live with it all. Granted, Remus does too, but he's less damaged to begin with because his personality and background don't give him quite as far to fall.

That being said, both Sirius and Toreth grew up in families that didn't like them or give them any backing. I don't think there's anything nobler about being a cock (which Toreth MOST CERTAINLY is) because you grew up poor than because you grew up rich - they both ended up with damage from their families. Toreth is a very likeable sociopath who I would probably fall helplessly and painfully for (or I would have when I was 22) because of that air of danger, competence and that feeling he gives you that there're wonderful things underneath the shell that you could excavate if you could only get close enough. I think that Sirius is equally charming and intriguing, for much the same reasons, to those people he likes. And let's face it, the people Toreth doesn't like won't get treated any better than Sirius treated Snape. It IS a more honest approach to come out and say that "yes, I torture and kill people for a living and it doesn't bother me" than it is to say "whoops, I never meant you any harm when I sicced the werewolf on you" - but it's hardly any more endearing! Except it somehow IS OK when it's Toreth, in the same way I think it IS when it's Sirius too.

I guess it all probably boils down to the fact that I'd shag them both in a heartbeat. :D

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Taking up with Snape? At least Lupin had some gentility, Snape has a little of the Robert Maxwells about him. Which makes him fascinating in his own right, but Walpurga would Not Have Been Impressed.

You can rant all you lke here, it's practically encouraged!

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Yay for Pin and the Strumpet School of Literary Appreciation!

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Lupin had gentility? Not much more than Snape surely. I imagine Walpurga would have been supremely unimpressed with either choice, but if you really want to call it, I'd say the Blacks would have known better how to deal with a sycophantic, half-blood who knew his place than a self-contained, quietly judgmental werewolf.

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