On Sirius Black ...

[blamebrampton]

One of the interesting people on my flist began a cool discussion on Sirius Black over at her journal. Alas, it's flocked (which is a shame, because there are some fascinating views), and so I don't want to go into much detail on the specifics. In fact, if it wasn't a common position in fandom, I'd not touch it. But it is, so although that person and others who know her know will be going 'a-Ha!'*, everyone else can just read this as another Brammers raves at length post. 

The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.

Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'

She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.

And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.

To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.

When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.

Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.

And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.

To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.

But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.

Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.

To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?

What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.

Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.

What Sirius is, is a hater.

He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).

Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.

What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.


*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)

Comments

[aldehyde.livejournal.com]

oh, seeing such a long post from you about my fave hp character is something else ;)

i agree that sirius is an arse, but that's part of his charm! :P while i don't approve of his bullying of kreacher or his continued hatred of snape, i think the fact that he never really got to grow up plays a big role too. he already had a less-than-perfect childhood, and then when he finally found a family at hogwarts that accepted him, there comes voldemort and his merry band of evil-doers. worst of all? he gets blamed for his best friend's death, and then rots in azkaban for a dozen years, where all he can do is plan revenge and let his hatred of all things death eater-y fester. he never gets to deal with his sorrow or any other negative emotions [or even the happy ones] in a healthy way, never gets to experience life itself. that's bound to fuck you up, man.

then again, snape never had to spend time in azkaban and he was just AS messed up, so i'd say sirius did a pretty good job.

plus, who can resist that patrician nose and cocky aristocratic drawl? remus and i sure can't ;)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think Sirius wasn't even in the top five of Snape's problems, those positions are merrily filled by Voldemort, Mrs Snape, Mr Snape, James Potter and Lily Potter ... He's broken well before he meets Sirius, as his behaviour to Tuney shows. Absolutely he could have grown up to be a decent and happy person, but it would have required a kinder and better world than the one he exists in ...

And yes, the reason 30something Sirius is just like 20something Sirius is that there is nothing to change him in the interim. I should really get cracking on my H/D stories so that I can write the Remus side to my Sirius story ...

[okydoky.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with all of this.

I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Sirius was never given a chance to grow up really, he can't have been much older than 21 when he went to Azkaban. And of course when he escaped, prison damaged him and that is all there is to it. And then he dies, so what chance did he really have?

Perhaps Sirius can see the similarities in his and Severus's situations, and hates him because he took a different path which he percieves as the wrong path.

♥

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I think you make a good point about Sirius seeing the similarities, though he would probably describe them all in terms of the differences. But yes, I think the fact that Severus has all that information in front of him and still chooses to take the Dark Mark is just the thing Sirius needs to conclude he was right to hate him all along.

Admittedly, it makes for more dramatic narrative than the fanfiction we all fought together and then slept with each other alternative ...

[pingrid.livejournal.com]

I agree completely, and I'm thrilled that you wrote that so I don't have to! :D Sirius is one of my favourite characters, actually. In fact, I must remember to ask Rai how she can love Toreth from The Administration (yes! I caved!) so much and not like Sirius, hm! They're not the same but have a lot of similar characteristics to my mind, except that Sirius is actually a bit nicer. He's not blond though - do you think maybe Shiv has got to Rai and made her one of them? ;)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Surely not, Rai's hot hubby is dark, after all!

I think that if I were JKR I would have needed a sign on my mirror saying 'Sirius cannot be saved! Resist the urge!' because from a narrative perspective he needs to stay broken and beaten by Voldemort and the world around him. But I would imagine that the urge would have been huge. Because yes, there are so many likeable characteristics there, even Minerva was fond of him, if exasperated at the same time.

I think it's just Rai's Malfoycentrism speaking. Draco has her wrapped around his pointy features ;-)

You will stay with H/D as well as administration, though, won't you? I have another political story full of explosions underway ... *looks winningly*

XXX

[inamac.livejournal.com]

Word. Sirius is a BLACK - Toujour Pur, and all that.

(The more I read of the Mitford letters the more I see the parallels between them and the Blacks - not only is Sirius pwned by his family, but his relatives are so far in with Hitler Voldemort and his sycopants that it's hardy surprising he ends up in prison.)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

OMG! I deleted the line 'He reminds me of Decca Mitford!' because I thought a lot of people would say 'Who?'

Spooky ...

(and, on a complete side note, I rather love your owl)

[abusing-sarcasm.livejournal.com]

Thank you for Taking On Me. *nods*

The post was flocked because it was as much about my neuroses as it was about Sirius. I agree with your assessment of his character, but the simple fact is that I don't feel any sympathy. I was tortured for a great deal of my life, something that affects every single thing I do to this day and is the main reason why my self-esteem is so shoddy, and I couldn't give a crap for the family situation of those people I knew as an adolescent. Perhaps they were abused or neglected? Perhaps they had strange, fanatical mothers, and the shadow of race wars hanging over their heads. I don't care. What they chose to do was to project their issues on others, and that, in my opinion, makes them Bad People.

I think that most people who bully others can be analyzed, and you can find a "reason" for their behavior - that's what's always said: "The bullies are the ones who REALLY have low self-esteem!" - but, again, I don't care. The fact remains that I was turned from a happy-go-lucky child into a suicidal headcase by the public school system. My parents never abused me; we were well-off and I wanted for nothing. I can't say that I wouldn't have become a neurotic, fucked-up adult anyway for a whole host of other reasons, but I never got the chance to find out. Instead, I spent seven years getting spit on and having things thrown at me, the end result of which is that I can't hear the laughter of children without assuming it's directed at me, and I can't even handle FANDOM without frequent breakdowns.

So Sirius? Does not get a pass from me. Sure, we don't SEE him harassing anyone other than Severus in school, but I refuse to believe he wouldn't have. Which probably means that there are people walking around the Potterverse with scars on their arms, remembering things Sirius said and did to them ten and fifteen years later.

*shrug*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Your argument was actually cogent and reasonable. I can't read rape fic easily, not because I was ever raped, but because I have known women who were for as long as I can remember, and it turns me into an angry, violent person with a pair of castrating shears and detailed knowledge of their use on larger mammals which I feel sure could be applied more daintily. It's not the same visceral response, but it definitely colours my fandom experience, as they say.

But some of the responses to your post were all 'yah boo sucks to Sirius', which I thought required a response.

It's appalling that no one stepped in to stop your abuse at the hands of your schoolmates, if you'll forgive the analogy, it's a Hogwartsian-scale failure of the adults around you to do their job, in fact.

Do you find now that you're an adult that you can do some of that job for yourself? One of the interesting things I have found as I grow older is that the motivations of others become much clearer, and they are very rarely to do with me.

When I was a little girl I spent years wondering why my mother did not live with me, the day I realised that it was all about her and not really anything to do with me was a very good day. Not only did it remove some misplaced guilt, but it stopped me carrying around her issues as though they were my own.

You may never want to attempt any forgiveness for the people who tormented you, but I would strongly recommend letting go of their issues. Because otherwise they keep having the power to hurt you, which they never earned and you don't deserve.

[leochi.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is very interesting - I've never really liked the Marauders, as I never was interested in, nor cared for the "cool kids".

The Marauders seem to me to perfectly represent this "cool kids'" archetype. Sirius probably had a very uncomfortable childhood, but as he was brilliant, good-looking and strong headed, he made the best of it. I suppose he was quite self centered as well and found the right people to associate with: Another brilliant and cool guy, James, kind of surrogate brother, an admiring but brilliant outcast, Remus, and an adoring tag-along, Pettigrew.

Sirius' family history led him to hate all things related to death eaters, so Snape with his admiration for the dark arts and his shabbiness must have made an ideal hate object.

I don't think Sirius would have been a bully without James, in fact, the latter seems to be the greater bully to me; I do however believe that Sirius never had the chance to really grow up and to transform his youthful energy into a more mature perception of the world. It's always black or white for him, he doesn't seem to have grown up at all and treats Harry more like a fellow Marauder than a godson.

All in all he's a torn and unhappy soul with a really sad life story. (But I still don't like him very much, even if I feel quite sorry for him, but that's another story, because there are only very few characters in the HP series I really like.)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I think I feel the same about his character as a character. He's too self-involved to be really likeable. His story is one of the great tragedies of the HP universe for me, one of these bright and beautiful people who should have had the world at his feet but who had the world snatched out from under him. Pingrid once said she thinks of them as being the generation who grew up during the Roaring 20s, only to have everything snatched away by first the Depression and then the war. I'm not sure if that's them or the slightly older set, but there's certainly an edge of that all through the novels.

And HELLO! *Sends hugs*

[bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com]

Oh BB, so many layers to these characters, yes? I can kind of see both angles. I get what you're saying about Sirius and his hatred but it's also the case that hatred doesn't always require action. I mean, I think Severus and the Marauders feed off each other in an unhealthy and escalating sort of way but it's not like Sirius HAD to plan all of his cruel and dangerous pranks just because he hated.

I have to confess, canon!Sirius has never interested me all that much. I have a feeling fanon!Sirius could be very interesting if I were to get into Marauder fic - he's got a lot of charisma and back story both in his (pre)Hogwarts years and in Azkaban. I can see the richness there. But Marauders scare me a little - I'm already swimming in it with h/d and as/s. If I add marauders I may never leave my house again.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I'll do some up as podfic when I catch up with my writing, then you can mainline it while power walking ;-)

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Not that I don't agree with you, although I think the part about Sirius and Snape and his rejection of Snape because of their Pureblood link, I think, canonically, is not true. I think it's a fandom construction, assuming that Snape was a Pureblood because he was in Slytherin. In fact, we know that he was of mixed parentage, and given how small the wizarding world is, I have to assume that everyone knew that and that Snape slid into Slytherin by the seat of his pants based on his Prince antecedents.

Regardless, there is really no one in the books that I hate because I see them beyond the "cages" that JRK built for them. ALL the characters, with the exception of the Gryffindor trio and Dumbledore are little more than one-dimensional. The Marauders are limited by being characters of the past, and everyone else by the books' limited POV. Of course, a stronger writer could have made more of that, but she didn't and we're stuck with a limited Sirius. I do not think we are meant to dislike Sirius, otherwise JKR would have implicated him in the plot to kill James and Lily, and Harry (like Dumbledore) is a devining rod in the books. If Harry or Dumbledore likes them, then they are good. And the opposite is true. If Harry or Dumbledore dislike someone or don't trust them (Dumbledore with young Tom Riddle, Harry and his obsession with Draco in book 6), then it's a heads up. Oi! He'd bad! I'm convinced that Dumbledore's confrontation in the Tower with Draco was a back-drop for Harry saving Draco from the Firefyiend. How else do you wriggle out of the fact that he nearly killed, what, at least two people in book six. A replay of Sirius. I really don't think you're a killer Draco, even though if any of your machinations had been successful, I'd be dead, just like if Sirius' plot to kill Snape had been successful (and there's no reason to think it wouldn't have been but for James). I think Sirius' wrongful conviction of those Muggle murders is a "pass" in JKR's world, so that he can be a cruel wanker but he was the best friend of Saint James Potter and Saintess Lily Potter so forgive him his sins sort of nonsense.

It is really up to fanfiction to flesh these people out. I don't write Sirius (yet!), but I have written extensively about Snape and while I wouldn't say I make him soft and cuddly, I do believe I've made him whole, warts and all. It's the warts and all part that's fun.

Since JKR didn't see fit to explain WHY Sirius fed Snape to Remus, it's up to us to supply the reason. And it can't be just because he's an immature, spoiled young man. Because if that had been the case, then he would have been dismissed, expelled. Logically, you can't give Sirius a pass (it enrages me when people call this a youthful prank), UNLESS there is compelling evidence that there was something else, something much larger behind this act. I can think of several scenarios that make sense.

Plus, I think it only logical that if you hate Sirius, then you have to hate James. They BOTH were bullies.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

No, I've miscommunicated if that's what you've read, because I meant that he thinks it's loathsome Snape buys into Pureblooded pratiness since Snape is of mixed parentage.

To my mind, Sirius can almost understand why his family does it, but for Snape to do it makes no sense at all.

I think he hates him in the same way that French aristos who fought with the resistance hated poor or Jewish collaborators: those people were *meant* to know and do better. Which is, of course, a fallacy of reasoning, but that's a whole other post.

TOTALLY agree that James is tarred with the same brush and with far less reason!

[northern-rain.livejournal.com]

I found this really interesting, so thanks for posting. I've never really thought about Sirius that deeply myself, partly because I'm clearly far too shallow, and partly because I've always found him incredibly hard to get a handle on, largely because, I suppose, we see him through Harry's eyes. I found the inconsistencies, or blatant hypocrisy in him rather maddening, but was equally frustrated that Harry failed to see this.

[salixbabylon.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - very thought-provoking. I've always had mixed feelings about Sirius and really enjoyed reading your views this morning. Thanks for tkaing the time to post. :)

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Nah, you see you missed the important issue. Black is not a blond cock, and therefore is unworthy of porn.

Also, at age 11 Snapey hasn't signed up for the Death eaters so Sirius' bullying has little to do with that and everything to do with Sirius being a cock.

[raitala.livejournal.com]

Well said that man!

[romaine24.livejournal.com]

Okay, I admit it, I adore Sirius. I have from the beginning. Was he an arse at Hogwarts? Probably. I could easily see why he would detest Snape. Snape is latching onto the things that Sirius is rebelling against.

What we are told in canon about the Marauders mainly comes from Snape's POV. And remember, that scene was Snape's worst memory. Maybe I'm a gullible person but to condemn one man for some incidents (horrible as they were) in his teenage years is odd. I think I've lived with and have troubled teenagers in my family to have this understanding.

But also in his teenage years he embraced a werewolf, so much so that he and James and eventually Peter learned one of the most difficult spells to support their furry friend. He was kicked out of his own home for his beliefs. I believe Snape had the love of his mother, I don't think Sirius did. I have no doubts that Sirius would have sacrificed his life if he remained the Secret Keeper.

And what drew Sirius (Padfoot) out of Azkaban? Believing that his godson was in danger. Not only that but he once again sacrificed his life for the cause. He didn't need to stay in Grimmauld. He chose to stay there to help. He could have stayed on the run. And good God why condemn him for hating Kreacher. I'm sure Kreacher, being his mother's house-elf, caused him great harm in watching over everything he did and then embracing the pureblood beliefs of the Black family.

As someone said either in this post or the other, I admire JKR for killing off Sirius. For two years Harry had someone who was totally dedicated to him and his welfare.

Sirius was off, but who wouldn't be, but he never wavered in his belief against the Dark Arts and pureblood supremacy or his loyalty to his friends.

BTW: My honest guess is that the backstory for why Sirius wanted to feed Snape to Remus was over Regulus.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. When I was writing Of Great Price, everything hinged on Regulus. Even feeding Severus to a wolf kind of made sense after Severus had fed Regulus to Voldemort.

And yes, he gets out of Azkaban with the ability to still make the odd joke, how rare is that? It's not until he is locked up again that he really sours.

[joanwilder.livejournal.com]

He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, AHAAAA! No, he hates Severus because he was weaker and Sirius, being a bully, could smell blood in the water. Bullies always go after the most rewarding targets. Sirius is a cock.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh I never read Severus as being weak. From the time we meet the funny-looking gawky kid in the smock, that kid has a strategy and the will to implement it.

But then I read the whole feeding him to the wolf thing as revenge for feeding Regulus to Voldemort, so I may have over-thought the whole thing.

[noeon.livejournal.com]

The past view of Sirius is a little flat as pir8fancier pointed out. He and James are both teaching models of the idea that Good People Do Bad Things. Or Did. I think he can neither be exempted from charges of having bullied, nor do I see him as The Bully Typified. I think he was probably a spoiled, confused, callous, and situationally mean kid, as well as a loyal friend and a brave companion in difficult times.

He meets the hair fetish criteria, too. If dark hair is allowed.

[arcanetrivia]

And all of this is a big part of why I love Severus/Sirius fic. :)

He is a cock.

Oh my yes. But I say this with affection. :)

[frantic-mice.livejournal.com]

I kind of always secretly liekd him but. Yeah, I seen peeps in my flist be all OMG!HE SUXERS! and I was liek. Hmmm. Well. Yes. But so does Draco in his own blondie way. Draco is as much a bully to certain peeps as Sirius was. AND! I dunno why but it bothers me a bit that peeps tend to me all Judgey McJudge on peeps they don't like all all APOLOGIA ROMANTICA NUMERO DEUX with peeps they do like for whatever blond reason. Sux. BUT! There are also those who have been bullied. I was bullied for a little while. ACTUALLIES for a LONG while and then in High School I started speaking up for myself but in a FUNNIEH way and peeps started leaving me ALONES! but the thing is. Which is weird. A guy I went to High with came up to me once and asked me why I had hated him. I COULDN'T believe it. @ the tiem I thought 1) I'm just defending mahself 2) I'm doing it in mah funnieh crack harmless way. BUT! this guy remembered it differently and it totes hurt him to the point where he thought HATE was involved. CRAZY! but it gives me a rly interesante perspective on the bully-victim thinger cause I guess I been both. Kinda. =/

[uminohikari.livejournal.com]

You raise good points and I see where you're coming from but... I will never like Sirius /or/ James. Hating is one thing, but turning people upside down and the whole revealing-Lupin thing is just :|

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

Here via romaine. :)

I'm an unapologetic Sirius fan, a Remus/Sirius OTPer who also throws James into the mix on occasion but is mostly content to keep him as the best friend, and a general MWPP-L fan.

Is Sirius a bit of a cock? Sure. So are James, Snape, & Draco, and even Molly, Hermione, Ron and Harry can be annoying at times where you want to smack them. He's got plenty of flaws, but for all that, he's loyal to his dying breath to those he loves, he would have died for James and Lily, would have for Remus and Peter, too, and he did die for Harry.

I know a lot of people hate him especially because of the sending Severus to the shack thing when they were 15/16, and yeah, it was a horrendous thing to do. I still don't think he intended for Severus to be outright killed - I tend to think of it in the mindset that he himself wasn't particularly "deathly afraid" of the werewolf, and by that time had likely spent a couple of full moons with him as Padfoot. Not to mention in his mind I can see him thinking "it's Remus", not really "slavering killer werewolf". Not that it excuses him by any means, but we have no idea what transpired beforehand, what was said, what the circumstances were. When you're 15/16, even the tiniest slight can seem monumentally insulting, and it's not necessarily an age thing. We see adults do stupid shit all the time.

I don't get bothered so much when people hate on him because of the Willow prank incident, but I do raise my eyebrows and get a little exasperated when similar behavior in those same people's favorite characters is excused with little more than a handwave. Snape claimed some responsibility for - crap, not Amelia Bones - the other one who died - Emmaline was it? - in HBP. He and his friends Avery and (crap - Mulciber?) weren't exactly innocent themselves as teenagers, and he became a Death Eater which involved more than lip service and making potions. He was indirectly responsible for the deaths of James and Lily.

I'm also of the opinion that Snape wasn't a poor little woobie who couldn't stand up for himself either. And his conversation with Lily after the worst memory scene lends a bit of credence to that. It wasn't his worst memory because he was pantsed or nearly so, it was because that was the finally straw that broke his friendship with Lily. Not to mention that he treated Neville abominably, and there's no excuse for a teacher terrifying a kid into thinking he's going to poison (and kill) his pet. He had his reasons for hating Harry, yes, but Harry didn't start the animosity between them, Snape did.

I still find him to be a fascinating character though. *shrug*

And then Draco, who nearly killed Katie and Ron in HBP, who Imperiused Rosmerta and the only reason he didn't Crucio Harry in the bathroom was because Harry hit him with the hex first (which, you know, if people are going to bitch about Harry using unforgivables and then handwave Draco's using them...)

Lucius likely killed a number of people - wizards and muggle - during his lifetime and tenure as a Death Eater, and he also gave 11 year old Ginny Weasley Riddle's diary with the hope of killing more people and harming her in revenge against Arthur.

So nobody is a saint, not the "good" guys nor the "bad" guys - they ALL have flaws, just as we do. It doesn't matter why we like them or who we ship, but what bothers me most when people exhibit character hate is when there's blatant hypocrisy - glorying in the flaws and behaviors of the hated character while simultaneously excusing and/or whitewashing flaws in favored ones.

*btw - good post, if I forgot to say so! I always enjoy discussions like this one! (And I will stop editing for typos now! :-P)

[gabe-speaks.livejournal.com]

What I think is saddest about the James/Sirius hate is that it's seeping into Next Gen fics. I mean, I've seen two types of James Sirius Potter, and only two: one is JSP as James; the other, JSP as Sirius. Shame that, too. James has just as much potential as Albus, if not more.

[jadzialove.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said, and thrilled you've brought Snape into it. Though I do have to say I think that it's better applied to their later years at school.

Seems to me the 11-year olds were simply doing what pre-teens generally do: ranking others and jockeying for position. While I can't imagine James's family being chummy with the Blacks, the wizarding community seems small enough, and the purebloods fewer and fewer, that James and Sirius had to've at least been aware of each other. And even if they'd never met, surely they'd have recognized in each other their similar stations in life. They meet on the train and become fast friends, then stumble upon two strangers: a pretty girl and a sullen, odd boy with something to prove. The girl, maybe they're on the fence about her even if she is bossy, but not the boy. The boy is, unfortunately, immediately sized up and found wanting. He's too different, too unpleasant and clearly not of their lot. Not to mention, for some odd reason, the girl not only chooses his company, she defends him. That's the jumping off point, anyway, as far as I see it. Severus never really had a chance. Not because James and Sirius are bullies, but because Severus has no social skills and a ginormous chip on his shoulder. He's gonna show them all... And he's the perfect target for the two boys because they get exactly the reaction they're looking for from him, every time.

And I do think you're right about the werewolf business. Sirius would have to have been completely irrational to blame Severus for leading Regulus astray (I'd think it more likely it was the other way round), being that his parents, however squeamish they might've been about getting their own hands dirty, were wholly in agreement with Voldemort's rhetoric. So I think there was a jealousy factor as well---Snape was friendly with Sirius's brother, while Sirius was persona non grata with family. Snape is still that same easy target, but in this case, it's more personal, and so, much more fierce.

Anyway, that's just my take on things. Isn't it funny how so many people can read the very same words and come to different conclusions like that? I mean, some of these debates are heated, and most of the debaters are so absolutely convinced that they are 'right' about this character or that one, they cling to their positions with grips of steel, sometimes getting downright nasty. But the reality is that it's all just speculation on our parts.

No one truly knows but JKR, and she ain't tellin.

[shu-shu-sleeps.livejournal.com]

I never had much of a problem with Sirius - yes he was a bit of a prat as an adolescent - who wasn't but as an adult he remains fiercely loyal to his friendships formed in adolescence and he sees the enormous potential in the next generation. I always thought that that JKR wrote Sirius quite well - even down to the enormous contradiction of not wanting to grow up but also accepting an enormous weight of responsibility and feeling quite powerless to follow through and do what he knows he really wants to in order to deal with it. And for the record - I quite like Snape too - seriously complex character but there is some good under the outer presentation. JKR made sure all her characters were like onions - lots of layers.

[hitsuzen-hime.livejournal.com]

I missed this when you originally posted it as we hadn't friended yet. I found the whole thread really interesting as the Blacks are a central part of my HP writing so I'm always looking for more development into the personalities of these 'minor' cannon characters. The one thing that I wanted to point out was in your original post you wrote:

"What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all."

This right there is something I have been struggling with for a while, when you read the Epilogue in the series you have to confront the idea that somehow in the wasteland of mentally damaged individuals that the wizarding world has become that these children are going to enter into loving and lasting marriages and raise these happy families with well adjusted children within a matter of years. It just boggles the mind, it's as though JKR just decided to throw everything she ever wrote about human nature out the window and gave the publishers the ending that they wanted to see, not what you could realistically expect to see from individuals who had lived through a horribly debilitating era of 'cold war' all through their formative years and then just as they reached the age of soldiers were thrown to the wolves as cannon fodder. Just doesn't make sense and I think you really hit the nail on the head with the Blacks, once the family was undoubtedly functional, but there wasn't a generation post Grindewald that functioned anywhere near normally, I sometimes wonder if that isn't why Andromeda married Ted Tonks, just to get away from the wreckage the Blacks had become.