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blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2009-02-26 07:32 pm
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On Sirius Black ...

One of the interesting people on my flist began a cool discussion on Sirius Black over at her journal. Alas, it's flocked (which is a shame, because there are some fascinating views), and so I don't want to go into much detail on the specifics. In fact, if it wasn't a common position in fandom, I'd not touch it. But it is, so although that person and others who know her know will be going 'a-Ha!'*, everyone else can just read this as another Brammers raves at length post. 

The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.

Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'

She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.

And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.

To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.

When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.

Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.

And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.

To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.

But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.

Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.

To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?

What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.

Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.

What Sirius is, is a hater.

He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).

Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.

What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.


*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)


[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm afraid it's true, I can always forgive any horrible things in a character I want to sleep with! :D

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I imagine you haven't been able to make it that far along in the series yet, but Toreth's up-bringing involved more shit than simply whatever nagging and coldness drove Sirius to act out as he did. It is the difference between not understanding or even registering concepts such as trust or dependence or love and being a foot stamping little twerp.

Because I am a scrupulously, scrupulously fair person I will concede that however many well-reasoned or just plain vituperative arguments I come up with (I've got armfuls) it is essentially boils down to a question of whether when they throw you a slow smile you go all warm and gooey or whether you snort at the scrofulous little fuck for imagining he is in any way attractive enough to make up for being a berk.

I have to say that for all my going gooey over Malfoys and Toreth in RL I wouldn't touch them or anyone like them with a 10 foot pole and marigolds. I am allergic to men who know they are attractive and always have been and I don't like playing games I can't win.

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm on Wine, Women and Cushions now, so there's probably much more to come about Toreth's background (yay)! OTOH, what I've seen of hi, this far is WAY more than we ever see of Sirius's background and motivations in canon, so I'd say it's a pretty fair basis for comparison.

But yes - it does more or less boil down to whether or not you get at wet-on for these characters or not, because there really isn't any way around the fact that they're bastards. Oh, I can just imagine how this conversation will go after a couple of bottles of wine! :D

I have to say that a very particular brand of men who know they're attractive make me go week at the knees. But men who fancy themselves the best thing since sliced bread are SUCH a turn-off, I agree! IRL, that is. :)

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
It is so good - it has utterly fucked up my work week so far :D

I can't wait to sit about and squee about everything face to face :D

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
YES! Not Long Now! :D:D:D Well, actually far too long, but who's counting. I'll try to remember to pick up some nice bottles of wine from the tax-free so we can get stuck right in. Best not to waste any valuable time if our reputations as Pisshead Ping and Roaring Rai are to be upheld. ;)

[identity profile] raitala.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 12:12 am (UTC)(link)
*snorts*

Sounds like a plan, though I will need to try and not be hungover to the point of incivility on Saturday :D

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
True! But don't you remember the itinerary - it very clearly states something along the lines of "Miraculously not hung over but sporting mysterious bruise" for Saturday. We're in the clear! ;) But yes, I'm also much in favour of avoiding liver and kidney failure, so we should schedule in the occasional glass of water as well.

[identity profile] uminohikari.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
You raise good points and I see where you're coming from but... I will never like Sirius /or/ James. Hating is one thing, but turning people upside down and the whole revealing-Lupin thing is just :|
ext_14568: Lisa just seems like a perfectly nice, educated, middle class woman...who writes homoerotic fanfiction about wizards (Sirius-OWLs (color))

[identity profile] midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 01:00 am (UTC)(link)
Here via romaine. :)

I'm an unapologetic Sirius fan, a Remus/Sirius OTPer who also throws James into the mix on occasion but is mostly content to keep him as the best friend, and a general MWPP-L fan.

Is Sirius a bit of a cock? Sure. So are James, Snape, & Draco, and even Molly, Hermione, Ron and Harry can be annoying at times where you want to smack them. He's got plenty of flaws, but for all that, he's loyal to his dying breath to those he loves, he would have died for James and Lily, would have for Remus and Peter, too, and he did die for Harry.

I know a lot of people hate him especially because of the sending Severus to the shack thing when they were 15/16, and yeah, it was a horrendous thing to do. I still don't think he intended for Severus to be outright killed - I tend to think of it in the mindset that he himself wasn't particularly "deathly afraid" of the werewolf, and by that time had likely spent a couple of full moons with him as Padfoot. Not to mention in his mind I can see him thinking "it's Remus", not really "slavering killer werewolf". Not that it excuses him by any means, but we have no idea what transpired beforehand, what was said, what the circumstances were. When you're 15/16, even the tiniest slight can seem monumentally insulting, and it's not necessarily an age thing. We see adults do stupid shit all the time.

I don't get bothered so much when people hate on him because of the Willow prank incident, but I do raise my eyebrows and get a little exasperated when similar behavior in those same people's favorite characters is excused with little more than a handwave. Snape claimed some responsibility for - crap, not Amelia Bones - the other one who died - Emmaline was it? - in HBP. He and his friends Avery and (crap - Mulciber?) weren't exactly innocent themselves as teenagers, and he became a Death Eater which involved more than lip service and making potions. He was indirectly responsible for the deaths of James and Lily.

I'm also of the opinion that Snape wasn't a poor little woobie who couldn't stand up for himself either. And his conversation with Lily after the worst memory scene lends a bit of credence to that. It wasn't his worst memory because he was pantsed or nearly so, it was because that was the finally straw that broke his friendship with Lily. Not to mention that he treated Neville abominably, and there's no excuse for a teacher terrifying a kid into thinking he's going to poison (and kill) his pet. He had his reasons for hating Harry, yes, but Harry didn't start the animosity between them, Snape did.

I still find him to be a fascinating character though. *shrug*

And then Draco, who nearly killed Katie and Ron in HBP, who Imperiused Rosmerta and the only reason he didn't Crucio Harry in the bathroom was because Harry hit him with the hex first (which, you know, if people are going to bitch about Harry using unforgivables and then handwave Draco's using them...)

Lucius likely killed a number of people - wizards and muggle - during his lifetime and tenure as a Death Eater, and he also gave 11 year old Ginny Weasley Riddle's diary with the hope of killing more people and harming her in revenge against Arthur.

So nobody is a saint, not the "good" guys nor the "bad" guys - they ALL have flaws, just as we do. It doesn't matter why we like them or who we ship, but what bothers me most when people exhibit character hate is when there's blatant hypocrisy - glorying in the flaws and behaviors of the hated character while simultaneously excusing and/or whitewashing flaws in favored ones.

*btw - good post, if I forgot to say so! I always enjoy discussions like this one! (And I will stop editing for typos now! :-P)
Edited 2009-02-27 01:09 (UTC)

[identity profile] gabe-speaks.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 04:24 am (UTC)(link)
What I think is saddest about the James/Sirius hate is that it's seeping into Next Gen fics. I mean, I've seen two types of James Sirius Potter, and only two: one is JSP as James; the other, JSP as Sirius. Shame that, too. James has just as much potential as Albus, if not more.

[identity profile] jadzialove.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said, and thrilled you've brought Snape into it. Though I do have to say I think that it's better applied to their later years at school.

Seems to me the 11-year olds were simply doing what pre-teens generally do: ranking others and jockeying for position. While I can't imagine James's family being chummy with the Blacks, the wizarding community seems small enough, and the purebloods fewer and fewer, that James and Sirius had to've at least been aware of each other. And even if they'd never met, surely they'd have recognized in each other their similar stations in life. They meet on the train and become fast friends, then stumble upon two strangers: a pretty girl and a sullen, odd boy with something to prove. The girl, maybe they're on the fence about her even if she is bossy, but not the boy. The boy is, unfortunately, immediately sized up and found wanting. He's too different, too unpleasant and clearly not of their lot. Not to mention, for some odd reason, the girl not only chooses his company, she defends him. That's the jumping off point, anyway, as far as I see it. Severus never really had a chance. Not because James and Sirius are bullies, but because Severus has no social skills and a ginormous chip on his shoulder. He's gonna show them all... And he's the perfect target for the two boys because they get exactly the reaction they're looking for from him, every time.

And I do think you're right about the werewolf business. Sirius would have to have been completely irrational to blame Severus for leading Regulus astray (I'd think it more likely it was the other way round), being that his parents, however squeamish they might've been about getting their own hands dirty, were wholly in agreement with Voldemort's rhetoric. So I think there was a jealousy factor as well---Snape was friendly with Sirius's brother, while Sirius was persona non grata with family. Snape is still that same easy target, but in this case, it's more personal, and so, much more fierce.

Anyway, that's just my take on things. Isn't it funny how so many people can read the very same words and come to different conclusions like that? I mean, some of these debates are heated, and most of the debaters are so absolutely convinced that they are 'right' about this character or that one, they cling to their positions with grips of steel, sometimes getting downright nasty. But the reality is that it's all just speculation on our parts.

No one truly knows but JKR, and she ain't tellin.

[identity profile] shu-shu-sleeps.livejournal.com 2009-02-27 07:07 am (UTC)(link)
I never had much of a problem with Sirius - yes he was a bit of a prat as an adolescent - who wasn't but as an adult he remains fiercely loyal to his friendships formed in adolescence and he sees the enormous potential in the next generation. I always thought that that JKR wrote Sirius quite well - even down to the enormous contradiction of not wanting to grow up but also accepting an enormous weight of responsibility and feeling quite powerless to follow through and do what he knows he really wants to in order to deal with it. And for the record - I quite like Snape too - seriously complex character but there is some good under the outer presentation. JKR made sure all her characters were like onions - lots of layers.

[identity profile] shiv5468.livejournal.com 2009-03-01 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
He's still not blond.

And it's not like that at all. Not everyone in Slytherin is bad, so signing up for it is hardly committing to being Ebil Overlord. The only reason dear old Sevvie goes to the bad - or at least one of the main drivers - is the way he's bullied. Left alone he would have been all sweetness and light, discovered shampoo and had lots of hot sex.

[identity profile] hitsuzen-hime.livejournal.com 2009-06-25 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I missed this when you originally posted it as we hadn't friended yet. I found the whole thread really interesting as the Blacks are a central part of my HP writing so I'm always looking for more development into the personalities of these 'minor' cannon characters. The one thing that I wanted to point out was in your original post you wrote:

"What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all."

This right there is something I have been struggling with for a while, when you read the Epilogue in the series you have to confront the idea that somehow in the wasteland of mentally damaged individuals that the wizarding world has become that these children are going to enter into loving and lasting marriages and raise these happy families with well adjusted children within a matter of years. It just boggles the mind, it's as though JKR just decided to throw everything she ever wrote about human nature out the window and gave the publishers the ending that they wanted to see, not what you could realistically expect to see from individuals who had lived through a horribly debilitating era of 'cold war' all through their formative years and then just as they reached the age of soldiers were thrown to the wolves as cannon fodder. Just doesn't make sense and I think you really hit the nail on the head with the Blacks, once the family was undoubtedly functional, but there wasn't a generation post Grindewald that functioned anywhere near normally, I sometimes wonder if that isn't why Andromeda married Ted Tonks, just to get away from the wreckage the Blacks had become.

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