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blamebrampton ([personal profile] blamebrampton) wrote2009-02-26 07:32 pm
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On Sirius Black ...

One of the interesting people on my flist began a cool discussion on Sirius Black over at her journal. Alas, it's flocked (which is a shame, because there are some fascinating views), and so I don't want to go into much detail on the specifics. In fact, if it wasn't a common position in fandom, I'd not touch it. But it is, so although that person and others who know her know will be going 'a-Ha!'*, everyone else can just read this as another Brammers raves at length post. 

The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.

Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'

She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.

And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.

To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.

When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.

Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.

And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.

To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.

But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.

Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.

To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?

What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.

Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.

What Sirius is, is a hater.

He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).

Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.

What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.


*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)


[identity profile] aldehyde.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
oh, seeing such a long post from you about my fave hp character is something else ;)

i agree that sirius is an arse, but that's part of his charm! :P while i don't approve of his bullying of kreacher or his continued hatred of snape, i think the fact that he never really got to grow up plays a big role too. he already had a less-than-perfect childhood, and then when he finally found a family at hogwarts that accepted him, there comes voldemort and his merry band of evil-doers. worst of all? he gets blamed for his best friend's death, and then rots in azkaban for a dozen years, where all he can do is plan revenge and let his hatred of all things death eater-y fester. he never gets to deal with his sorrow or any other negative emotions [or even the happy ones] in a healthy way, never gets to experience life itself. that's bound to fuck you up, man.

then again, snape never had to spend time in azkaban and he was just AS messed up, so i'd say sirius did a pretty good job.

plus, who can resist that patrician nose and cocky aristocratic drawl? remus and i sure can't ;)

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I think Sirius wasn't even in the top five of Snape's problems, those positions are merrily filled by Voldemort, Mrs Snape, Mr Snape, James Potter and Lily Potter ... He's broken well before he meets Sirius, as his behaviour to Tuney shows. Absolutely he could have grown up to be a decent and happy person, but it would have required a kinder and better world than the one he exists in ...

And yes, the reason 30something Sirius is just like 20something Sirius is that there is nothing to change him in the interim. I should really get cracking on my H/D stories so that I can write the Remus side to my Sirius story ...

[identity profile] okydoky.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I completely agree with all of this.

I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Sirius was never given a chance to grow up really, he can't have been much older than 21 when he went to Azkaban. And of course when he escaped, prison damaged him and that is all there is to it. And then he dies, so what chance did he really have?

Perhaps Sirius can see the similarities in his and Severus's situations, and hates him because he took a different path which he percieves as the wrong path.

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree completely, and I'm thrilled that you wrote that so I don't have to! :D Sirius is one of my favourite characters, actually. In fact, I must remember to ask Rai how she can love Toreth from The Administration (yes! I caved!) so much and not like Sirius, hm! They're not the same but have a lot of similar characteristics to my mind, except that Sirius is actually a bit nicer. He's not blond though - do you think maybe Shiv has got to Rai and made her one of them? ;)

[identity profile] inamac.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Word. Sirius is a BLACK - Toujour Pur, and all that.

(The more I read of the Mitford letters the more I see the parallels between them and the Blacks - not only is Sirius pwned by his family, but his relatives are so far in with Hitler Voldemort and his sycopants that it's hardy surprising he ends up in prison.)

[identity profile] aldehyde.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
i need to read your sirius story!

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Surely not, Rai's hot hubby is dark, after all!

I think that if I were JKR I would have needed a sign on my mirror saying 'Sirius cannot be saved! Resist the urge!' because from a narrative perspective he needs to stay broken and beaten by Voldemort and the world around him. But I would imagine that the urge would have been huge. Because yes, there are so many likeable characteristics there, even Minerva was fond of him, if exasperated at the same time.

I think it's just Rai's Malfoycentrism speaking. Draco has her wrapped around his pointy features ;-)

You will stay with H/D as well as administration, though, won't you? I have another political story full of explosions underway ... *looks winningly*

XXX

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
OMG! I deleted the line 'He reminds me of Decca Mitford!' because I thought a lot of people would say 'Who?'

Spooky ...

(and, on a complete side note, I rather love your owl)

[identity profile] abusing-sarcasm.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for Taking On Me. *nods*

The post was flocked because it was as much about my neuroses as it was about Sirius. I agree with your assessment of his character, but the simple fact is that I don't feel any sympathy. I was tortured for a great deal of my life, something that affects every single thing I do to this day and is the main reason why my self-esteem is so shoddy, and I couldn't give a crap for the family situation of those people I knew as an adolescent. Perhaps they were abused or neglected? Perhaps they had strange, fanatical mothers, and the shadow of race wars hanging over their heads. I don't care. What they chose to do was to project their issues on others, and that, in my opinion, makes them Bad People.

I think that most people who bully others can be analyzed, and you can find a "reason" for their behavior - that's what's always said: "The bullies are the ones who REALLY have low self-esteem!" - but, again, I don't care. The fact remains that I was turned from a happy-go-lucky child into a suicidal headcase by the public school system. My parents never abused me; we were well-off and I wanted for nothing. I can't say that I wouldn't have become a neurotic, fucked-up adult anyway for a whole host of other reasons, but I never got the chance to find out. Instead, I spent seven years getting spit on and having things thrown at me, the end result of which is that I can't hear the laughter of children without assuming it's directed at me, and I can't even handle FANDOM without frequent breakdowns.

So Sirius? Does not get a pass from me. Sure, we don't SEE him harassing anyone other than Severus in school, but I refuse to believe he wouldn't have. Which probably means that there are people walking around the Potterverse with scars on their arms, remembering things Sirius said and did to them ten and fifteen years later.

*shrug*

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
It's my poor unloved story, that I hold very close to my heart and assure it's not really a Nigel No Friends. I think I have it tagged, Of Great Price.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you make a good point about Sirius seeing the similarities, though he would probably describe them all in terms of the differences. But yes, I think the fact that Severus has all that information in front of him and still chooses to take the Dark Mark is just the thing Sirius needs to conclude he was right to hate him all along.

Admittedly, it makes for more dramatic narrative than the fanfiction we all fought together and then slept with each other alternative ...

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Your argument was actually cogent and reasonable. I can't read rape fic easily, not because I was ever raped, but because I have known women who were for as long as I can remember, and it turns me into an angry, violent person with a pair of castrating shears and detailed knowledge of their use on larger mammals which I feel sure could be applied more daintily. It's not the same visceral response, but it definitely colours my fandom experience, as they say.

But some of the responses to your post were all 'yah boo sucks to Sirius', which I thought required a response.

It's appalling that no one stepped in to stop your abuse at the hands of your schoolmates, if you'll forgive the analogy, it's a Hogwartsian-scale failure of the adults around you to do their job, in fact.

Do you find now that you're an adult that you can do some of that job for yourself? One of the interesting things I have found as I grow older is that the motivations of others become much clearer, and they are very rarely to do with me.

When I was a little girl I spent years wondering why my mother did not live with me, the day I realised that it was all about her and not really anything to do with me was a very good day. Not only did it remove some misplaced guilt, but it stopped me carrying around her issues as though they were my own.

You may never want to attempt any forgiveness for the people who tormented you, but I would strongly recommend letting go of their issues. Because otherwise they keep having the power to hurt you, which they never earned and you don't deserve.

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:12 pm (UTC)(link)
He is dark NOW - but who knows, maybe she'll bleach his hair while he sleeps! ;)

Sirius's dying is maybe the thing in the HP series that moved me most deeply because it's such a tracedy arc, the whole thing - both for the character, who never really got to have much of a life, and of course that when he dies that shatters so much of Harry's hopes as well. And sure, he is a bastard in many ways, which his background doesn't excuse. But it does explain it. I can see why, if someone has been bullied IRL, they would hate Sirius's character. However, not unless they also hate Snape, who bullies Harry, and Harry and Draco, for bullying each other through the years - there are a LOT of flawed characters in the HP verse, and I don't really see why Sirius is singled out as the cock.

And of course! I LOVE your political and exploding fics, you know that, right? &hearts

[identity profile] leochi.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, this is very interesting - I've never really liked the Marauders, as I never was interested in, nor cared for the "cool kids".

The Marauders seem to me to perfectly represent this "cool kids'" archetype. Sirius probably had a very uncomfortable childhood, but as he was brilliant, good-looking and strong headed, he made the best of it. I suppose he was quite self centered as well and found the right people to associate with: Another brilliant and cool guy, James, kind of surrogate brother, an admiring but brilliant outcast, Remus, and an adoring tag-along, Pettigrew.

Sirius' family history led him to hate all things related to death eaters, so Snape with his admiration for the dark arts and his shabbiness must have made an ideal hate object.

I don't think Sirius would have been a bully without James, in fact, the latter seems to be the greater bully to me; I do however believe that Sirius never had the chance to really grow up and to transform his youthful energy into a more mature perception of the world. It's always black or white for him, he doesn't seem to have grown up at all and treats Harry more like a fellow Marauder than a godson.

All in all he's a torn and unhappy soul with a really sad life story. (But I still don't like him very much, even if I feel quite sorry for him, but that's another story, because there are only very few characters in the HP series I really like.)

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I feel the same about his character as a character. He's too self-involved to be really likeable. His story is one of the great tragedies of the HP universe for me, one of these bright and beautiful people who should have had the world at his feet but who had the world snatched out from under him. Pingrid once said she thinks of them as being the generation who grew up during the Roaring 20s, only to have everything snatched away by first the Depression and then the war. I'm not sure if that's them or the slightly older set, but there's certainly an edge of that all through the novels.

And HELLO! *Sends hugs*

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:25 pm (UTC)(link)
*Smiles winningly at the sundry internet surveillance bodies who have come here thanks to all the Echelon triggering code words in this post ;-)*

I remember being genuinely shocked that both Harry and Remus lost him so suddenly, and not sure which was worse.

[identity profile] bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh BB, so many layers to these characters, yes? I can kind of see both angles. I get what you're saying about Sirius and his hatred but it's also the case that hatred doesn't always require action. I mean, I think Severus and the Marauders feed off each other in an unhealthy and escalating sort of way but it's not like Sirius HAD to plan all of his cruel and dangerous pranks just because he hated.

I have to confess, canon!Sirius has never interested me all that much. I have a feeling fanon!Sirius could be very interesting if I were to get into Marauder fic - he's got a lot of charisma and back story both in his (pre)Hogwarts years and in Azkaban. I can see the richness there. But Marauders scare me a little - I'm already swimming in it with h/d and as/s. If I add marauders I may never leave my house again.

[identity profile] leochi.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Hey, HELLO there, too! *grins and hugs back*

Oh, the 20s analogy is the perfect one, yes, I totally agree with you on that point!

What I quite like about the HP novels, is that none of the people are real heroes, they all have those shades of grey and there is not a single supposedly "good" character who doesn't have a dark/sad/dubious side. (And opposed to this, the "bad" characters all h do ave their human or at least, funny side.)

I think JKR did a good job on archetypes, you can find the whole lot of C.G.Jung's figures of the inner world: Anima/Animus, Old Wise Man/Woman, Hero, Fool etc. etc. That's what I like about her books. And above all she offers lots of possibilities to spin own stories by not revealing too much, in the end.

(Hehe, that keeps fandom going, even if it's mostly about slash or other sex affairs, but you know, sex and money... *g* But to be honest, there are also tons of very clever stories, too, e.g. yours, of course! ;D) Though I must admit that I've quite stopped reading fandom and have reverted to canon instead.

Thank you for posting this, my dear!

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll do some up as podfic when I catch up with my writing, then you can mainline it while power walking ;-)

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes! I fully agree! I have been re-reading canon, too, and keep finding more to admire. Even in book seven, which was my least favourite. I think I just needed time to absorb it ;-)

Funnily enough, your pictures help. They always seem like snaps of people who are growing and changing, rather than grown and static. That's how the characters are for me, and I am not sure if I will ever really pin them down to one reading ...

[identity profile] pir8fancier.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Not that I don't agree with you, although I think the part about Sirius and Snape and his rejection of Snape because of their Pureblood link, I think, canonically, is not true. I think it's a fandom construction, assuming that Snape was a Pureblood because he was in Slytherin. In fact, we know that he was of mixed parentage, and given how small the wizarding world is, I have to assume that everyone knew that and that Snape slid into Slytherin by the seat of his pants based on his Prince antecedents.

Regardless, there is really no one in the books that I hate because I see them beyond the "cages" that JRK built for them. ALL the characters, with the exception of the Gryffindor trio and Dumbledore are little more than one-dimensional. The Marauders are limited by being characters of the past, and everyone else by the books' limited POV. Of course, a stronger writer could have made more of that, but she didn't and we're stuck with a limited Sirius. I do not think we are meant to dislike Sirius, otherwise JKR would have implicated him in the plot to kill James and Lily, and Harry (like Dumbledore) is a devining rod in the books. If Harry or Dumbledore likes them, then they are good. And the opposite is true. If Harry or Dumbledore dislike someone or don't trust them (Dumbledore with young Tom Riddle, Harry and his obsession with Draco in book 6), then it's a heads up. Oi! He'd bad! I'm convinced that Dumbledore's confrontation in the Tower with Draco was a back-drop for Harry saving Draco from the Firefyiend. How else do you wriggle out of the fact that he nearly killed, what, at least two people in book six. A replay of Sirius. I really don't think you're a killer Draco, even though if any of your machinations had been successful, I'd be dead, just like if Sirius' plot to kill Snape had been successful (and there's no reason to think it wouldn't have been but for James). I think Sirius' wrongful conviction of those Muggle murders is a "pass" in JKR's world, so that he can be a cruel wanker but he was the best friend of Saint James Potter and Saintess Lily Potter so forgive him his sins sort of nonsense.

It is really up to fanfiction to flesh these people out. I don't write Sirius (yet!), but I have written extensively about Snape and while I wouldn't say I make him soft and cuddly, I do believe I've made him whole, warts and all. It's the warts and all part that's fun.

Since JKR didn't see fit to explain WHY Sirius fed Snape to Remus, it's up to us to supply the reason. And it can't be just because he's an immature, spoiled young man. Because if that had been the case, then he would have been dismissed, expelled. Logically, you can't give Sirius a pass (it enrages me when people call this a youthful prank), UNLESS there is compelling evidence that there was something else, something much larger behind this act. I can think of several scenarios that make sense.

Plus, I think it only logical that if you hate Sirius, then you have to hate James. They BOTH were bullies.

[identity profile] pir8fancier.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:55 pm (UTC)(link)
My daughter got a message on Facebook the other day from a guy who had been dreadful to her at one point in school. Really a dick. And he apologized for his behavior. So people can own up to their craptastic behavior.

[identity profile] pingrid.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Heheh! Surely Voldemort is not President, so talk about killing him is all right? ;)

Yeah, Remus's loss too. Heartbreaking! I think that actually killing Sirius off, and at that point, is one of the best choices JKR made. I probably wouldn't have been able to bring myself to do it, so I admire the decision.

I'm off on a mission to see if I can find anyone willing to sell me cheap but nice parquet flooring. TTYL! :)

[identity profile] leochi.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)
*bows to the complimen* (Though I must say, you do surprise me!!!)

I'm at Book 6 at the moment and I really liked the first part with the two (actually three) ministers, this time. Although the uncanny parallels to the ungoings in our real world made me quite uncomfortable.

[identity profile] blamebrampton.livejournal.com 2009-02-26 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
No, I've miscommunicated if that's what you've read, because I meant that he thinks it's loathsome Snape buys into Pureblooded pratiness since Snape is of mixed parentage.

To my mind, Sirius can almost understand why his family does it, but for Snape to do it makes no sense at all.

I think he hates him in the same way that French aristos who fought with the resistance hated poor or Jewish collaborators: those people were *meant* to know and do better. Which is, of course, a fallacy of reasoning, but that's a whole other post.

TOTALLY agree that James is tarred with the same brush and with far less reason!

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