A case in point ...

[blamebrampton]

So, there we were, having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list, with participants from both sides of the pond and beyond and frequent diversions into baiting and comedy from all sides, and apparently it has become a source of Flocked Drama.

Consider the argument very carefully: At least one American is very upset that British people prefer to be depicted in accurate ways.

And if you can't see why that's a bit dodgy, replace the word British with any other nationality.

I don't want to overstate the case, because really, it doesn't culturally oppress us the way that some other cultures have been oppressed by this sort of thing, since we don't deeply care and we had an Empire first. And while the original source of the complaint is a preference, it's certainly not a sine qua non, and we read heaps of stuff that gets us wrong, and some of it is good and some is crap, and really, at the end of the day we still pronounce and spell aluminium in ways that are scientifically logical, which in itself is enough. But, honestly ...

Interestingly, one of my points of difference was a tendency to soap-opera-like over-reactions in fiction. Clearly I drew the line too narrowly.

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

Comments

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I've never suggested that good or bad writing is exclusive to one side of the pond or the other.

Though I would suggest that a critique of bad writing tropes in British fiction would not be read as extrapolating directly to a personal attack on the entire nation by British readers.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

I know three people who go to church in my entirest life, and everyone I know sends Christmas cards. People curtsey to the Queen, but we aint' feudal. English culture is formulaic and formal, but usually empty.

The Muslim Brits I know do send Cmas cards though.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Never midn that, have you seen this decidedly not SFW Tremlett?

http://harrissports.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/tremlettcosmo.jpg

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

It is nearly at the point when I find it hard to recognise the England cricket team with their kit on. Bless them!

[ravurian]

Personally, I always welcome the opportunity to use either of my most relevant tongue-in-cheek icons - the one I've used here, or this one, LOL.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

*Snort!* And as to fucking colonials, that's how I ended up in Sydney ... (Boom! Boom! in the immortal words of Mr B. Brush ...)

[groolover.livejournal.com]

I didn't see the original argument. But I found your post very thought-provoking. I have been told - by more than one person - that I am the *only* person who notices Americanisms, so they don't see it as a big deal. However, all of those people were American, and I have also had several conversations with fellow Brits in which we have commiserated with each other over the prevalence of "off of" and, yes, "date", amongst many others.

It's true that not even all Brits agree with each other over what constitutes an Americanism, particularly in the past few years, when quite a few things that I think of as American have become commonly used by British people, due (no doubt) to the amount of American TV we watch.

I don't blame American HP fanfic writers for not knowing every single little difference between the languages. I do blame them if they know the differences and pay no attention to them: if a story says in the HEADER that the author has chosen to ignore (e.g.) the fact that most cookies are called biscuits in the UK, I hope the author will forgive me for choosing to ignore her story.

Apart from glaring examples such as that one, though, I certainly won't refuse to read a story just because I suspect (or know) it contains Americanisms. Some of my very favourite writers use them all the time. And the Americanisms won't stop me enjoying the story, if it's really good. However, I *will* notice them, and every time I notice one, it briefly breaks the spell of the story for me, so I'd much prefer it if they weren't there. (The same goes with spellings, but I find those easier to overlook.)

(If it's a story that's so good that I expect to read it again, I'll save it to disk, and in that case I always edit the Americanisms out, so that the NEXT time I read the story, my experience of it will be even better.)

I have an incredibly long list of things that are American enough to pull me out of a story, albeit briefly. Someday I'll publish it :-)

[emmacmf.livejournal.com]

I didn't see the original drama!post, but I imagine it was interesting.

I think using a Brit-picker is just a matter of respect for the source material. For goodness sake, I've had people Brit-pick me, because it's incredibly difficult not to absorb some Americanisms in this day-and-age. I fretted for twenty minutes over what we call the containers we get chinese takeaway in - cartons seemed too American to me - and ended up consulting shocolate. I think we went with tray in the end, and I'm sure I was over-thinking it, but these things bother me. So I completely appreciate how difficult it is to write 'British', but it doesn't take an awful lot of work to knock a fic into something with a British tone, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss a fic for a few rogue Americanisms just as long as the author had made a bit of an effort.

Back in the days when I used to write Quantum Leap fic, I had a friend American-pick it for me (and this was pre-internet and pre-my having a computer, so I used to write longhand and send off a photocopy). I wanted my writing to be as authentic as possible, so I took the steps necessary to help me achieve that.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh you're definitely not the only one who notices ... Though they rarely make me backbutton out -- unless in conjunction with something else that already has my finger hovering. I'd probably even give the cookies one a go if I had time, but with little hope. I love your sneaky fix method! I recently read a story that was really enjoyable but had one odd writerly tic that was incredibly distracting -- next time I come across something similar, I will try it!

Do write up the list if you have time, I know it's something that many people would find useful.

[groolover.livejournal.com]

It *is* written up - that's how I know how long it is! I didn't do it all in one go - I can't actually remember what made me start it, but I add to it every time I encounter a new thing that I think should be on it (i.e. I know I've seen it more than once).

I do intend to post it sometime, but I feel it needs a little explanation - particularly if there are flame wars going on elsewhere on related topics!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I'd not be too worried if I were you, it's a personal thing not a generalised one. There are a lot of people in this fandom who enjoy reading and using Britpicking tips, and I think they would be pleased. (Maybe leave it a couple of days until the drama has moved on if you're nervous ;-))

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Mr B bought me a mug for Christmas that says Keep Calm and Stop Carrying On -- I might need an icon ...

I agree that an effort is an act of good faith. I don't think it is the sole criterion of good writing, as there is plenty of badfic that has been beautifully Britpicked, but it is about getting into the head of the characters and stretching your writing. It does reassure me that the writer is not lazy, too. Which in itself is enough to encourage the prospective reader!

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

AND I left off the fact that it the entire United States has been the subject of mass-brainwashing to accept caffeinated flavoured beverages as coffee. Though I see Starbucks has dropped the word from their logo, truth in advertising at last!

Amen to that, sister. Not all of us have bought into the hype, though hype may be much of what is available to buy these days. I demand REAL coffee!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Like any brainwashing, it was never going to be universally successful. I applaud all those who have stood against the tide! And yes, REAL coffee! Thank goodness there are lots of Italians in the US :-)

[blythely.livejournal.com]

Heh, I read some less-than-impressed reviews of it too but my suspicion is that people don't really want to read ethnographies of their own cultures. It's not a flattering portrait - not one to be ashamed of, but rather just like reading a biography of a socially awkward colleague whop you drunkenly snogged one night.

So - it's not brilliant but it *is* insightful in a way that I as a faux-Brit colonial with Professional Opinions on Cultural Difference thought was quite good for a pop-sci book.

[hollyxu.livejournal.com]

I would be '...' except I've seen the same sort of reaction to an attempt to categorize Canadian vs US, so really, not surprised.

But that list would be really useful, especially since I have no framework for British culture outside of Austen/Bronte, and therefore about 200 years off. Fandumb is inhibiting progress! D:

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

I think you have absolutely missed the mark on this one. I think you're an open enough person to listen to someone else.
You're so far off out of the atmosphere you need an oxygen tank.

My opinion only:

Talking about differences between word choice and cultural influences is cool. A great deal of Americans who write HP, try to have consistent feel and language to JKR's verse (which is a fantasy world created in the UK). I've been Britpicked to change dresser to chest of drawers, nightstand to bed side table, and a whole host more. I've picked them up as I go along. The vast majority of comments were indeed "having a chat on a friend's LJ about the differences between the US and the UK for purposes of a self-Britpicking list" but a number of comments made that were some bizarre generalizations about Americans that were indeed rather offensive (and not even remotely accurate) - and they weren't made because they didn't belong in an HP fic, but to get in some nasty digs.

I'm not sure that someone from a smaller country/region and hasn't traveled in America can truly appreicate the vastness and huge multicultural country that it is with widespread variances from regions to region. 310 million people over almost 4 million sq. miles. The cultural differences between American regions are far greater in someways then the cultural differences between the UK and the US. The US is multicultural. The term US culture is a complete misnomer. It's like saying there's a European culture. Yes, maybe a little, but I doubt people in the UK think they have a common culture with the French or Portugese. The common threads vs. differences are probably similar as the commonality and differences with the US.

I thought both posts were absolutely hysterical. I wasn't angry at all. I thought it LOL funny that some people have this conception of Velveeta eating-church going-saving themselves for marriage-soap opera watching-think there is nothing outside of US borders- Americans. I don't know 1 single person (and I know a lot of people) who even has any of those traits/habits. Ok, maybe church for weddings and baptisms. It's rather laughable. The response fic was satirical response to these absurdist stereotypes of American culture and writing. IT'S FUNNY.

Yes, we have a coffee culture. For the record, I have a great big cuppa joe in the morning and probably 3-4 cups of Earl Gray (black) the rest of the day. Sometimes when I have a cold I put honey in it.

So to sum up my long winded American-ness. Posts/comments/discussion talking about cultural differneces = interesting. People thinking there is such a things as a general 'American Culture'= not understanding Americans. People wanting to be satirical about bizarre American stereotypes = HILARIOUS.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

It's always hard to take that look. When raitala and I were trapped in Paris and doing endless laps of CDG airport in 2009, we took time to assure each other that we were doing very well by virtue of our native stoicism and that coping with adversity was a Sterling British Trait.

Exactly at this point, a sweet little English child skipped past, singing to herself. We exchanged a look and smug nods.

Seconds later, a shriek of 'Sharon! I am at my wits' end! Get back here before give you such a smacking!' rang out.

There was a moment, after which rai murmured 'Ah, the British abroad ...' and we pretended we were French for a bit.

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

American politics has allowed itself to be controlled to some extent by religious fundamentalists, and that has seeped through to the culture. Who are these people, and how many of them are there? I have never met a single one, though I have only lived on the east and west coasts. Even my brother and his evangelical family, despite being Biblical fundamentalists, are mostly politically liberal, and their religion doesn't allow them to participate in the political process anyway, so they're off the radar. I believe that a small number of people have amassed a great deal of money and are dominating and influencing politics.

That being said, I have seen the statistics, and yes, there are far more religious believers here than atheists/agnostics. I'm just not convinced that most are extremely religious in the way the religious right suggests the majority of this country is.

*Note:probably won't be able to respond to this in real time!*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Do you know how strong the temptation is to say 'Actually, no, that all still stands exactly the same' in the hope that you turn out genius Regency HP fic and I can pretend Temeraire is one of the dragons in the background? It's HUGE!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Just quickly, because I have to go to bed very soon. You're talking about Mel's post as one of your two, I'm not. I only read it after she commented above that she had written something. I can see why you would think that I might have been outraged, but am terribly sad that you think I would have been!

It wasn't her best work, which is a shame, but the coyote was inspired (if only it had been a were-coyote, that would have been perfect!)

Quite a few comments made in the original post refer to previous discussions on Shiv's LJ, which context is, I grant you, not immediately obvious to the casual reader. For example, my comment on religion was not only in reference to her suggestion that there is only religion in HP fic from Americans, but in response to a criticism of one of my fics that we have previously discussed in which I was accused of foregrounding my personal faith because I had characters attend a funeral in a church.

Many points were also to do with American writing, rather than Americans per se, such as the infamous soap opera influence. This is an important distinction, and one that was thrown aside in ways that I don't think can be justified.

We all know that America is hugely diverse, as even a history of 20 years of the Republican party will show. But I will stand by the statement that religion is overly influential in your country, as too many political decisions are made in the light of it. And also that Starbucks is not real coffee. Cannot speak as to cheese, due to allergies.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that the average American is more likely to have a liberal attitude even if they are a strong religious believer, which is one of the reasons I am consistently incensed by the political power wielded by a religious minority in the US.

Things do not look to improve in the next two years, alas.

[hollyxu.livejournal.com]

Haha! I did write a Temeraire fusion, but in the Sherlock BBC-verse. There's also a Mulan in the works, but that one is slooooooow.

Could you imagine Ron as a dragon captain? He'd really be saying 'bloody hell' all the time.

But more seriously, it's funny-ish that both sides are from cultures used to being the dominating influence in media. (As am I, but China in Western media is ... really not something I'm going to get into now.)

[blythely.livejournal.com]

LOLZ *tear from eye*

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Speaking as an American, I HATE Americanized versions of texts. I was slightly appalled and extremely disappointed the first time I learned that it happened. Because, let's be honest, the greater reading public of the US probably doesn't have any idea the words have been changed at all. (Although, they're probably not also as annoyed by it as I am, but god damn it. I wanted to read a book by a BRITISH author. I KNEW THE RISKS I WAS TAKING WHEN I GOT INTO IT. Which aren't really risks so much as I might fall a little more in love with some of the British word choices. Life is hard, man.)