There are limits. Big-shouldered sequin jackets *shiver!*
I swear, it's ridiculous. Massive recession, energy crisis, Conservative government cutting public projects at the same time as reducing policing (because no one has ever been upset by hard times in the past), racial elements to the thuggery, a police mistake that could be a genuine mistake but made grim by the lack of response ... I mean, who could have imagined any of this could go bad?
Shooting a suspect you are meant to be arresting is always a mistake, which is why the first police step after a shooting is always an inquiry. Sometimes it's a justified mistake, sometimes not, that's up to the inquiry.
The officer who fired the lethal shots has been quoted as saying that he was not fired upon, but rather that he opened fire because he believed he was in danger from a lethal weapon.
I have immense sympathy for the fact that it is always easy for things to go horribly wrong the minute you have guns involved, and I feel very sorry for the policeman involved, because regardless of what happened, I think he is probably having nearly as bad a week of it as the Duggans.
The Met seriously fell down on their own procedures and rules when they did not inform the Duggan family and left it for them to find out from the news. They have admitted as much today, which I think would have happened without the protests, though perhaps not as quickly. (The riots and looting, which are inexcusable, are not really connected to Mark Duggan, save by the flimsiest of excuses.)
And it can be a mistake to shoot people who are shooting at you. There was a case in Australia since I have been living here where a mentally deranged person had a handgun, but the house in which he or she (cannot recall now) was holed-up was otherwise empty, the area was cordoned off, and the police had a perimeter far enough back that they could wait it out. They shot instead, and were found to have made the wrong decision by the inquest that followed (I am fairly sure the disturbed person survived, but as you can see, my memories of the event are very hazy.)
They are reporting rumours. At least, the Gruniad is. It is reporting stuff that it believes has been leaked to it. That may prove correct - but it is certainly not fact.
Just now the IPCC felt compelled to deny at least one of those circulating rumours - the gun was a real gun, not a replica.
At the moment, there is no official report, though the Guardian has a rather good crime desk and their only mention of the fake gun rumour that I know of has been to say that it was a fake fake gun, as it were.
The Guardian can be a very good paper but, like all the other papers in the UK, it has a particular political agenda and prefers stories that pander to it.
If these reports turn out to be wrong, it can always say it was misinformed - and will, if it bothers at all. If they turn out to be correct it will pat itself on the back so hard it will fall forwards.
More seriously, I don't believe any of it at the moment. I will not be totally shocked if the Guardian reports are true, but I will be even less shocked if they prove false.
What I do know is that, if the other guy has a gun, you shoot to stop, which means shooting at the chest, which often means killing. This is true of every police force in the world. Standard practice. Only way to stop them doing it is to throw down your gun, stick you hands in the air, and yell "Don't shoot! I surrender!"
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2011-08-08 11:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-08 11:30 pm (UTC)I swear, it's ridiculous. Massive recession, energy crisis, Conservative government cutting public projects at the same time as reducing policing (because no one has ever been upset by hard times in the past), racial elements to the thuggery, a police mistake that could be a genuine mistake but made grim by the lack of response ... I mean, who could have imagined any of this could go bad?
no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 07:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 08:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 09:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 09:35 am (UTC)I have immense sympathy for the fact that it is always easy for things to go horribly wrong the minute you have guns involved, and I feel very sorry for the policeman involved, because regardless of what happened, I think he is probably having nearly as bad a week of it as the Duggans.
The Met seriously fell down on their own procedures and rules when they did not inform the Duggan family and left it for them to find out from the news. They have admitted as much today, which I think would have happened without the protests, though perhaps not as quickly. (The riots and looting, which are inexcusable, are not really connected to Mark Duggan, save by the flimsiest of excuses.)
And it can be a mistake to shoot people who are shooting at you. There was a case in Australia since I have been living here where a mentally deranged person had a handgun, but the house in which he or she (cannot recall now) was holed-up was otherwise empty, the area was cordoned off, and the police had a perimeter far enough back that they could wait it out. They shot instead, and were found to have made the wrong decision by the inquest that followed (I am fairly sure the disturbed person survived, but as you can see, my memories of the event are very hazy.)
no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 10:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 10:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 11:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 12:18 pm (UTC)Both they and the BBC are reporting the reports, not the actual report, so all this is subject to change, of course.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 12:21 pm (UTC)Just now the IPCC felt compelled to deny at least one of those circulating rumours - the gun was a real gun, not a replica.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 12:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 01:12 pm (UTC)If these reports turn out to be wrong, it can always say it was misinformed - and will, if it bothers at all. If they turn out to be correct it will pat itself on the back so hard it will fall forwards.
More seriously, I don't believe any of it at the moment. I will not be totally shocked if the Guardian reports are true, but I will be even less shocked if they prove false.
What I do know is that, if the other guy has a gun, you shoot to stop, which means shooting at the chest, which often means killing. This is true of every police force in the world. Standard practice. Only way to stop them doing it is to throw down your gun, stick you hands in the air, and yell "Don't shoot! I surrender!"
no subject
Date: 2011-08-09 11:29 am (UTC)http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516