Time after time

[blamebrampton]

Before I embark on today's chatter, anyone who has an interest in next-generation HP fic should go and read Cal's post here. It's a brilliant new plan that should be supported! And I'm not telling you about it, go and read!

Now onto a little thinky bit. It's not a rant, more a tip. I've been going back over some of the AS/S fest stories I missed, slowly slowly. And something that's occurred to me is that pretty much all of my  favourite stories  had a real sense of time to them. 

The Epilogue to DH is set in 2017. That's eight years in the future. Eight years does not sound like a ong time, but it is. Think about what life was like in 2000: I bet most of you had never heard of Osama bin Laden, the iPod was still on the drawing board, Windows 2000 was cutting-edge and Hillary Clinton was having a year of political successes. Eight years from now, things will have changed just as much.

Now it can be hard to play speculation, believe me that I know this to be true! So I understand why some people choose not to go there. But for stories set in classic HP era, or even Marauders era, why do some people not think back 10 or 20 years to what life was like, what people wore, and how people spoke?

Note that it's some. There are people out there who do an amazing job of researching or remembering their eras. For the rest, the internet is your friend. Vintage television series are easily come by (takes a brief mental pause for visions of a wave of Professionals-inspired H/D, decides that would be quite funny, moves on), and everyone has novels from the 1990s, '80s and '70s on their bookshelves.  Embrace them.

And, there's no gentle way to say this, try and research what was happening in Britain at the time. It's not what was happening in America. Well, except for the fact that Reagan and Thatcher were both making us all very nervous indeed.

Comments

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with the gist of this post. BUT: I don't know if Reagan and Thatcher play into HP at all. HP seems to be set in an alternate universe, with an anonymous male Prime Minister governing Britain. No real-world historical figures or events are mentioned, which gives the series a timeless aspect.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh I'm not suggesting they do or should, just that this was the main overlapping experience of the 80s for Americans and Brits. Both nations were genuinely afraid of impending nuclear disaster. But aside from that, I 'get' about 40% of American cultural references from that period, and that was 'my' period.

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that some writers put too many American cultural references into their fics?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

It's not even cultural references -- in fact most of those who use American cultural references are doing so with full awareness and are often doing interesting things with them. It's more that they write in a language that is anachronistic and is more obviously so because it's also based on a non-British lingo. In some ways it's like watching The Tudors ...

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Ah yes... I think I see what you mean. They talk about iPods instead of Walkmen: that sort of thing?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

YES! That's it exactly. And everyone owns a computer, which apparently (according to my wholly unreliable geek friends) was the case in America in 1985, but certainly wasn't the case in England. That sort of thing ...

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Not everyone in the US owned a computer in 1985. I was one of the few that did as I came from a computer-geek family (as did my husband, who ran a BBS as a teenager). And in law school in the early 1990's, I was one of the very few taking notes on a computer.

But yes: I've definitely read fics like that, and I know what you're saying. I tend to suspect they're by younger writers.

Dashing out now......

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Have a good dash! (I KNEW the geeks were lying to me!)

[glorafin.livejournal.com]

I'(m a bit confused by what you mean actually.

How can one research what the Wizarding world was like 10 years ago or how it will be in 10 year's time? Whatever the era described in a story, it'll still take place in an imaginary world. We have no way (in canon anyway) to know what progress would bring n the future or how it evolved in the past. Some might even argue that the notion of progress is alien to the wizarding world, which is all about tradition and immobilism....

That said, I think my own story does a pretty good job avoiding the traps you mention but, still, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I'll go up and clarify, but I am talking about the world around the story: the language, the beliefs, the fashion ... as anthimaeria says, iPods instead of Walkmans.

And I'm not sure that canon really does show an immobile world at all, there's an awful lot of change given in the seven years of the books, and more hinted at in the background. Hmmm, perhaps you could actually chart trends from within, might be time for another reread!

[glorafin.livejournal.com]

Even the "world around the story", as you put it, would be difficult to research as it's still imaginary.

I think the root of this discussion is that, for me, wizarding world and Muggle world are quite separate, so there is in my mind very little overlap between how young wizards and young Muggles talk for instance... and I don't think a walkman or an iPod have any reason to appear in the Potterverse. One could argue they could be brought into Hogwarts by Muggle-borns, but in my mind, that would be forbidden by the Headmaster, who wouldn't want to deal with recycling batteries or wiring Hogwarts with electricity (there is probably a word for that in English, but I don't know it :)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

True, tech in Hogwarts is something that would be weird in things set in the classic era, but within Canon there is an awful lot of interaction with the Muggle world, from running around with fireworks at the beginning of the series, to train stations and language and cars.

I think that having things from the past in the wizarding world is quite fine and natural, but have read quite a lot of stories in recent months where there are anachronisms from the future, coming from the writer's time, not the time the story is set. And this always causes me difficulty as a reader. It happens quite a lot in normal publishing, too.

[aldehyde.livejournal.com]

i completely agree with you. my fave remus/sirius fics have always been the ones where there are real world references to the music, lingo, art, news, etc of the time. and if the author managed to work in both muggle + wizarding elements that match the time frame, all the better.

i think a reason why some authors overlook this when writing new generation fic is b/c it's harder to come up with realistic or creative future developments, maybe? which makes me appreciate the authors who DO put in the extra effort even more :D

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I agree, there is some EXCELLENT R/S out there that has a real sense of time and place to it. There are some great authors out there!

To be honest, I don't find it a problem when there is no sense of time given and language is generalised, but obvious anachronisms blow me out of a story very quickly.

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

I must say that this is exactly one of the things that blew me away with Snatched. It felt like a different world. The Wizarding World was in flux immediately after the war and having one or two key items (technology/media for example) change the entire working of the society was not only fresh and interesting but very realistic.

2017 for Albus at 11, meaning 2023 for their 7th year. That makes the majority of ASS fics taking place 15 years from today. It's an interesting thing to contemplate.

::starts re-write of my cross-gen::

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh cheers, luv! You do not want to see the big sheet of scribbled on paper that went into working that all out ... (too many insights into my fundamental madness!)

And YES, exactly! All those years being changes to the world and the people in it. Er, sorry about the rewriting, but I know it will be entirely easily done, you are a bear of big brain!

[marguerite-26.livejournal.com]

Actually not much re-writing. I had the 'technology of the future' thought in my head as I was writing, but I think it's needs a little more details to give it substance.

you are a bear of big brain!
You do know that I am reading Twilight, don't you?? My brain has been steadily leaking out my ears.

And no, I'm not going to stop. *g*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I'll send you soup while you recover ;-)

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

i agree with what you.


yes, that's all i'm saying today. my brain hurts. :(

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Sends your brain loving pats, knows exactly how you feel!

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

i agree with what you.

wow. that's sad. holy broken english. *headdesk*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I believe you were being cool and postmodern!

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

or channeling viktor krum.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

hee! That's good, too! go and have a lie-down.

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

if only i could. i'm at work. boo...

i know why my brain is hurting. i was up reading (don't kill me...it's anti...ANTI!!) a stripped down, satirical, can't believe this shit was actually published, chapter-by-chapter version of 'Twilight'. it's HILARIOUS. i insist that you read this. it's by an anti-twilighter, and it's just...genius.

http://shinga.livejournal.com/478415.html

this is my daily rec for you. it reads fast and basically sums up the actual book and it's author into what we already know: just a bunch of plotless fuckery.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh good! Thanks! I had thought about doing something similar, but the pain of reading it stopped me. Can't you become sick enough to be sent home?

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

hee hee! i knew you'd get a kick out of this. i was dying laughing last night. epsecially with the "inner monologue" parts of the 'reader', 'the plot', and 'justin timberlake' (trust me...it's hilarious!) :D

i would make myself sicker...but i have so much to do before i leave for my mini-holiday on thursday. where others have deadlines of friday, wednesday afternoon. *headdesk again*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I cannot tell you the time I have spent on this ... still finding it hilarious!

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

Haha! Yeah, there were computers in the 80s, but they weren't things considered computers by todays standards. For example, our family machine: Tandy TRS-80 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80). Ours had 256M of ROM. It boggles, doesn't it? Not exactly super-shiny futurism. I mean, our Atari had fake wood grain. :P

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

now THAT is cool!

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It was less cool when I spent a summer in middle school in BASIC programming classes. (Still can't program worth a damn.)

My dad was an engineer, so that may have something to do with it. But it wasn't totally unusual, and we lived in backwoods, redneck America. Didn't even think about it being an American thing.

Are there sites devoted to 70s and 80s Britain, that you find reliable and accurate?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I've never looked ... I was *there*, so the most I ever need do is check if something happened in 1981 or 1982 ... Having said that, I wrote part of a book the other year that was all about Great Dates in History (my June was the highpoint, I feel ;-) and found the BBC history pages to be invaluable. Especially On This Day: www.bbc.co.uk/onthisday

[khateh.livejournal.com]

I haven't read any fics set during the Marauders era, but something I would like to see in more next gen fics is the way in which the wizarding world changed since Harry's time, or better said, I expect the world to be different and I want to see that in fics. I think there's an amazing potential to come up with new things there and it's frustrating when I read about different characters living in the same world.

I have a very visual imagination and when I think of a scene, I'm like a bird on my POV character's shoulder and my image includes all the details and lots of unimportant things that don't make it to the fic, but make my image of the fic world a lot clearer. I think doing this makes me consider things that others probably skip over because they see them unimportant for the plot. When they get to write a scene involving something commonly used, like the TV, I think they don't consider if it belongs in the scene, how it looked at the time or stuff like that.

Another thing is that many authors are not Brits or Americans, and even if they consider the 80s, they might consider 'their' 80s, mostly in terms of how life was. They could research the historical facts if they're needed for the fic and then think it's over.
I'm using the differences between the way life is in Britain and another country for a fest fic I'm writing, so I won't say more, but the differences can be big, and I think many writers don't consider this.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY! And while I can often still find a lot to enjoy in stories that ignore all these elements, the minute I find one that doesn't, I love it all the more.

[bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com]

You see, I avoid this by writing flangsty "relationship-driven" stories that involve zero politics and very little of the muggle world in general - Hogwarts and secluded cottages are all I need! lol

Honestly though, I kind of feel like people who know their shit because 1) they were there or 2) have researched it like a mofo can get away with time-specific details (and yes, I'm in agreement on Snatched being a good example of well thought-out future extrapolation technology - just rearranged those words until they make sense, please) but the rest of us should just try to be vague so as not to distract people with our inappropriate details.

For me, a big example of this is clothing. Unless you're really trying to say something of significance, then I don't need to know what the boys are wearing. I mean sure, if it's a scene where they are *noticing* each other but otherwise, leave it up to me. Even when I describe clothes, I try to do it very generally because each of us has our own vision of things. Then you add the timeline issues - because really, will Scorpius be wearing a shirt that says "princess" in glitter in 2025? - and it goes from distracting to just plain annoying.

I have to confess though that one of the time/culture slip-ups I really struggle with is "whatever" - it's just so beautifully dismissive and adolescent and no matter how many times I try to sub in something else, it just doesn't capture it. Now, I could probably make a case for the next-gen kids using it but Harry and Draco? No. And yet, I can't seem to stop myself... *shrugs*

Also, thanks for the nod over to Calanthe's next-gen project - looks awesome!!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Vague is fine, although it limits the scope of the story somewhat. This can also be fine, especially when it is a personality driven story as yours tend to be, but it doesn't work so well for plot driven ones. However I MUCH prefer vague to retrospective anachronisms, where whatevers and so on appear in the 1970s!

[sarcasticpixie.livejournal.com]

Was this a request for someone to write a Maurauders-era AU inspired by Fawlty Towers, with Snape as Basil and Remus as Sibyl? Peter would make a fabulous Manuel, come to think of it, and I'm sure Sirius was pretty enough to be Polly.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I would COMPLETELY read that. AND LOVE IT.

[violetage.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think perhaps it's important to remember that any Marauders' era fic would only have say glimpses of late 70's early 80's rl stuff is one that refers to Muggle clothes or Muggle music etc.

The Wizarding World has its own stuff and that tends to be both anachronistic and with barely any references at all to the Muggle world. My assumption often is that as a matter of rebellion James and Sirius in particular might wear bell bottoms and longer hair, might listen to Hair or even Led Zeppelin, might smoke pot occasionally and spread these Muggle inventions to Wormtail and Lupin especially given James' undeniable crush on Lily who is Muggleborn. Otherwise, I don't really see how Muggle events (whether based on real world history or not) would have much of an affect or a point of reference in a Marauders era story.

I can't imagine that from the time the Marauders were at Hogwarts to the time that Trio were there that styles of dress, behavior and so on would change that much in the Wizarding World and perhaps that's part of the tragedy. To an extent there's a stagnation going on in the Wizarding World. Those pure bloods so intent on their supremacy don't realize that they need those Muggleborns to bring new ideas, new thinking in almost like foreign exchange students or something.

Just my 02.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, but he'd not say "Awesomesauce" or be obsessed with fashion brands. It's those anachronisms thrown in from the future that really give me grief.

[violetage.livejournal.com]

That's true. He might say Groovy or Dig it or something lol. Yeah, I agree that some of these assumptions especially by writers who weren't alive then can be a real fic buster. *g*

[oddishly.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you've said 300%. I'm just coming to realise exactly how important general setting is in fic, to the extent that it can make or break it for me. It's not so much where and when the fic takes place, but the way it's written into the story - and in the best fics, how it's used to help tell the story. stillaseeker does this wonderfully; the sense of place that runs through all her fics is just as important to the story as characterisation and plot.

I suppose the main difficulty with time in fic comes from the fact that the books are pretty much solely set in Hogwarts: isolated in every sense of the word. We have next to no contact with either the Muggle or Wizarding worlds - outside of school, that is - or anyone past their adolescense, and neither news source (ie the Prophet/Quibbler) is particularly heavy on facts. Harry's life at the Dursleys is not exactly rife with opportunities to demonstrate quirks of the era, and the Weasleys are either too poor or too Pureblooded to be in with the latest Muggle technologies, such as they exist in the Wizarding world.

Anyway, such generalised setting/timing makes it easy to forget that you're writing about a time that isn't today but eight years ago or 17 years in the future, and to adjust for that. Unless, of course, you're going for timeless or similar - amanuensis1's 'What Could Have Been (And What Was)' springs to mind - in which case, you've got to be just as careful with your time work.

I suppose it's always therefore going to be easier to remember, if not necessarily write, the sense of time into both Marauders and Next Gen fic, because they're so obviously from another era. Of course then there's the danger of over-compensating, which brings me on to Snatched - *adds voice to Snatched!verse futuristicness love* - because you hit the balance exactly. As far as I can see the future happening, anyway, which granted is not particularly far. :) Plenty of, hmm, funky gadgetry but without turning into a dodgy sci-fi fic; news outlets developing and expanding beyond that which already exists; and the characters we've known as teenagers becoming convincing adults. (Also an important factor of the sense of time.)

I have a feeling this is sounding more like a plea for time-specific writing than time-correct writing, which isn't what I meant to do. To that end: all of what Bryoney said about clothing, I'll transfer to music choice for the characters. Admittedly, this is normally bad!fic, but setting aside the likelihood of Harry ever being particularly enthused over (Muggle!) rockstars, I always find references to music that's either 5 years old - not yet vintage - or 5 years away - not yet written! - somewhat grating. Especially on top of everything else. :) And again with what Bryoney said about inappropriate details/clutter.

I guess the most important question for me is how far wizards have integrated with Muggles in the fic, for whatever reason - and thank you JKR for providing a war over precisely that; essentially license to write Muggle relations however the hell you want to - because that's how I judge time in fic. Normally. (Snatched a good example of where I'd break with the norm!) EDIT: Muggle props/events etc, I mean, not political/cultural integration. Though that works fine as a time-has-passed technique, too.

(This had a whole lot more point to it in the scribbles in my notebook. Also, I'm basing it on numerous, thorough readings of Books 1-5 versus, er, one or two readings of the last books. Could therefore read a little... outdated. *g*)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

It all makes sense! And yes, you see Muggle artefacts in canon rather than a lot of Muggle society, as I said to someone else, if it was all Ford Anglias I'd have no issuse, but it's the language and items and cliches that come from 10 years after a story is set that really annoy me.

Music is an EXCELLENT example. I am working on an R/S at the moment and the firstthing I did was decide Sirius loved Muggle music as part of his rebellion at home, so constructed lists of the albums he would buy, and how he got them. I don't imagine any of that will make it into the story, but I *know*.

And yes, the Muggle integration shifts can be excellent as a source of time reference, too!

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Funny you say that because I realised that that glimpse into the future is the real reason I even read next gen fics. I don't really care for the pairings (although, for some reason, putting Scorpius with anyone else than Albus just feels wrong - must be projection from my OTP) and I've been disappointed in some AS/S fics enough to stop reading them altogether, only to get sucked back by fics like yours. Of course, epilogue-compliant H/D fics have the same problems but I don't notice them as much because I'm reading them for the H/D. *shrugs*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh you schmoozer ... but I have to agree, a well-made world can make a story for me. And out-of-time inclusions in classic era and Marauders fics can break one ...

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

LOL it did rather sound like I was trying to suck up. :D Wasn't intended. *G* And I never read Marauder-era fics and don't really know what wouldn't fit into the era -- well, except things like Lily whipping out an iPod during class because it shouldn't work with that much magic around, right? But I no longer read fics at ff.net. *shrugs*