blamebrampton (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
blamebrampton) wrote2009-02-26 07:32 pm
blamebrampton) wrote2009-02-26 07:32 pm
Entry tags:
On Sirius Black ...
One of the interesting people on my flist began a cool discussion on Sirius Black over at her journal. Alas, it's flocked (which is a shame, because there are some fascinating views), and so I don't want to go into much detail on the specifics. In fact, if it wasn't a common position in fandom, I'd not touch it. But it is, so although that person and others who know her know will be going 'a-Ha!'*, everyone else can just read this as another Brammers raves at length post.
The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.
Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'
She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.
And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.
To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.
When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.
Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.
And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.
To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.
But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.
Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.
To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?
What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.
Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.
What Sirius is, is a hater.
He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).
Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.
What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.
*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)
The short position taken by many is: Sirius is poxy because he is a big fat bully.
Now, I have to confess, I have heard this opinion from someone close to me. Indeed, when I mentioned to one of my dearest fandom friends that I was writing Sirius/Remus last year, she replied 'But Sirius is a cock!'
She was very kind about the fic itself, though she concluded her thoughts with 'Sirius is still a cock, though.' and his bullying bastardry was a large part of the perceived cockdom.
And to an extent, I agree. I get why some people look at the character and see someone that they would want to avoid at all costs. He is a cock. But I would argue that while at times he bullies Severus Snape, and Kreacher, I do not think he is not a bully per se.
To begin with, we never see him bully anyone else. Certainly, the glimpses we have of him as a kid are of a cocksure, arrogant gibbon, but he is an aristocrat who has been raised to believe himself beautiful and brilliant. He is kind to the rodenty (or at the very best, uninteresting) Peter Pettigrew, he is welcoming and always generous to the poor Remus Lupin. He's a brat, and a bit of a prat, but the only people he is vicious to are Snape and Kreacher, and I would argue that he feels himself wholly justified in both.
When we meet him at 11, he has just made his first independent friend, James Potter. Sirius has already decided that the Blood Purity passion of his family is not for him. But mere minutes after taking his first purposeful steps away from the life his family mapped out for him, he encounters Severus Snape.
Now a perceptive, mature and compassionate Sirius would look at Snape and say, ah, you suffer from many of the same family ills I do, let us overcome the respective horrors of our childhood with comradeship and kindness leading the way. But neither Sirius nor Severus live long enough to genuinely mature. And at 11, they are both, like most neglected children, proud, wilful and self-centred.
And of course they hate each other on meeting. To Severus, Sirius represents the rich Pure Blood world that he is excluded from. His easy charm, good looks and good possessions are a world away from life as a Snape.
To Sirius, Snape is a pathetic figure. He's the scholarship boy who drawls more affectedly than anyone else, and who cuts out wine columns from the better papers and magazines so he can pretend a knowledge of vintages. If Snape was politically sympatico with the Marauders, Sirius would find this a little sad, but he would be no crueller to him than to Pettigrew (who is Snape's feebler and less interesting Gryffindor equivalent), which is to say give him a little teasing now and again, and take some in his turn.
But their school education is entirely in the shadow of Voldemort. Somewhere between a year and 18 months before the Marauders and Snape catch the train to school for the first time, Voldelmort waltzes back into England with his new name and his expanded support team and his solid plan for taking over the world.
Their entire youth takes place in the shadow of Death Eaters. People disappear. At first it is only rumoured names, then people they have heard of, then people they know -- in the case of Regulus, perhaps people they still love.
To Sirius's mind, it is bad enough that his family believes in the bullshit that is tearing his society apart, but that Snape buys into it is unconscionable. JKR has said that there are elements of Hitler in Voldemort. If we extend the analogy, Sirius is filled with disgust that his family have willingly embraced the Reich, how can he react to Snape choosing to join the SS with anything other than hatred?
What starts off as a childish dislike has more than enough reasons to burgeon into hatred. Snape responds, and their violence feeds on itself. Remember that Snape knows Sirius did not reveal the Potters, nor kill Pettigrew. I think he may well know this almost from the time it happens, but he certainly knows it for at least a year of Sirius's life. He never once does a thing about it.
Now, it can well be argued that he can't – and don't for a moment think that I don't have a longer list of excuses for Severus's behaviour – but the central question is whether or not Sirius is a bully. If bullying is defined, as it usually is, as someone who exerts power over those weaker than him with elements of coercion, then Sirius is just a piss poor bully. Severus ends up with all the power, and Sirius never tries to coerce him into anything.
What Sirius is, is a hater.
He hates Severus, who represents everything that Sirius sees as being wrong with the world, and who embraces those ills without family connections, without Pureblood entitlement, without any reason that Sirius considers remotely valid. He absolutely hates Kreacher, who represents everything he ran from and who he ends up imprisoned with (imprisoned, mind you, after 12 years in Azkaban).
Now I am not saying that this is good. I am not saying that he is a decent chap under all that. He's fucked up, perhaps iredeemably. But he lives in a war zone, where everyone is fucked up. To single him out for condemnation is to ignore the fact that war fucks over every single member of a society.
What is remarkable is not that Sirius and James can be pricks, that Severus is a walking pile of neuroses and power tripping, that Dumbledore is a manipulative shit nor that there seem to be only two or three actually good parents alive in the Potterverse. What is remarkable is that any of them can be halfway decent at all.
*80s pop joke. You know you loved the video clip ;-)
no subject
no subject
I think that if I were JKR I would have needed a sign on my mirror saying 'Sirius cannot be saved! Resist the urge!' because from a narrative perspective he needs to stay broken and beaten by Voldemort and the world around him. But I would imagine that the urge would have been huge. Because yes, there are so many likeable characteristics there, even Minerva was fond of him, if exasperated at the same time.
I think it's just Rai's Malfoycentrism speaking. Draco has her wrapped around his pointy features ;-)
You will stay with H/D as well as administration, though, won't you? I have another political story full of explosions underway ... *looks winningly*
XXX
no subject
Sirius's dying is maybe the thing in the HP series that moved me most deeply because it's such a tracedy arc, the whole thing - both for the character, who never really got to have much of a life, and of course that when he dies that shatters so much of Harry's hopes as well. And sure, he is a bastard in many ways, which his background doesn't excuse. But it does explain it. I can see why, if someone has been bullied IRL, they would hate Sirius's character. However, not unless they also hate Snape, who bullies Harry, and Harry and Draco, for bullying each other through the years - there are a LOT of flawed characters in the HP verse, and I don't really see why Sirius is singled out as the cock.
And of course! I LOVE your political and exploding fics, you know that, right? &hearts
no subject
I remember being genuinely shocked that both Harry and Remus lost him so suddenly, and not sure which was worse.
no subject
Yeah, Remus's loss too. Heartbreaking! I think that actually killing Sirius off, and at that point, is one of the best choices JKR made. I probably wouldn't have been able to bring myself to do it, so I admire the decision.
I'm off on a mission to see if I can find anyone willing to sell me cheap but nice parquet flooring. TTYL! :)
no subject
I can hear you, you know?
Actually, I will concede that Toreth is a step removed from my usual preference for supercilious, aristocratic, arrogant, ice-cold, Malfoy bastards and the odd supercilious, arrogant, ice-cold Snape.
However, and I hope you are sitting comfortably, there are pronounced differences between the ravishing Toreth and that cock, Black. Firstly I should point out that I do simply think he is a cock and not anything more vile. He is a jock bully at school and so is James. James is also a cock but doesn't attract my significant ire because he is too bloody boring to focus on for more than a passing second and because everyone else evidently also finds him pretty boring. Sirius gets on my wick because of the large number of people who are under the misapprehension that he is not an utterly predictable, privileged, pouty-faced, petty-rebel. I personally do not find the 'Mummy, Daddy, I hate you, I'm going to run off and join the International Brigade' sufficiently attractive to make up for the significant irritation factor of the old predictable 'if your a goody then you didn't really mean to kill anyone when you sicced your werewolf friend on a fellow class-mate' routine.
There is a different between someone who is an upper-class rebel with an unshakable believe that they are on some level untouchable, resulting in an arrogant disregard for other people (Sirus); someone who is an arrogant, upper-class conformist, brought up not to think and not to give a fuck for anyone weaker than himself (Draco) and someone whose arrogance and ferocity is born of the deep seated knowledge, ingrained since early childhood, that there is nothing and no one that will look after him and no meaning to human interaction beyond standing on the weaker fuckers to keep your head above water (Toreth). Perhaps this simply means that Black isn't psychotic enough to make his personality disorder endearing?
I don't find his death particularly tragic. But then, I am in a foul mood, could you tell? He'd lost any chance of redeeming the crappy job he'd made of his adolescence when he was thrown in jail. What use was he going to be to anyone fucked up as his was, with the judgement of a 16 year-old and the reflexes of someone who's spent years in a damp dark cell. Honestly, Bellatrix was as mad as a box of bees, even Mother Molly Weasley could take her out.
There, I'd better stop before i irrevocably offend all my friends. *horse stable door etc.*
no subject
no subject
he's not half the turn my back on my roots and make a success of it rebel that Andromeda Tonks is
Dead right. I don't think anyone would ever describe Ted Tonks as a trophy-fuck. It's not the rebellion so much as the 'do these leather trousers make me look rakish while I rebel' cockery that, as I might have mentioned, rubs me up the wrong way. Could you get more showy, teen, fuck-you-I-won't-do-what-you-tell-me, than taking up with a homosexual werewolf?
no subject
You can rant all you lke here, it's practically encouraged!
no subject
no subject
There's no denying that Sirius and James were shits at Hogwarts, and that Remus was a cowardly shit, too. I'm not that fussed about James either, but both Sirius and Remus really appeal to me. I have RL friends who've done shitty things, hell, I've done shitty things myself, and while I can certainly wish those things weren't in our pasts it doesn't make me love my friends less. That's kind of how I feel about Sirius too - I just _like_ him, and so I'm willing to look past the fact that he is indeed a cock.
The tragedy of the Marauders to me, including Sirius, is that echo they give of the pre-WWI, and also pre-WWII, generations. Both wars were preceeded by periods of such hope and improvement, and then you have all that potential just wasted by war. It resonates with me on some deep level, I think (which reminds me that I must get around to scrounging up some money to send to relief organisations working in, say, the Congo ... I really should put my money where my mouth is.) Anyway, that's why his story reads so tragic to me; he's the embodiment of most of the ills - he's the one who has to live with it all. Granted, Remus does too, but he's less damaged to begin with because his personality and background don't give him quite as far to fall.
That being said, both Sirius and Toreth grew up in families that didn't like them or give them any backing. I don't think there's anything nobler about being a cock (which Toreth MOST CERTAINLY is) because you grew up poor than because you grew up rich - they both ended up with damage from their families. Toreth is a very likeable sociopath who I would probably fall helplessly and painfully for (or I would have when I was 22) because of that air of danger, competence and that feeling he gives you that there're wonderful things underneath the shell that you could excavate if you could only get close enough. I think that Sirius is equally charming and intriguing, for much the same reasons, to those people he likes. And let's face it, the people Toreth doesn't like won't get treated any better than Sirius treated Snape. It IS a more honest approach to come out and say that "yes, I torture and kill people for a living and it doesn't bother me" than it is to say "whoops, I never meant you any harm when I sicced the werewolf on you" - but it's hardly any more endearing! Except it somehow IS OK when it's Toreth, in the same way I think it IS when it's Sirius too.
I guess it all probably boils down to the fact that I'd shag them both in a heartbeat. :D
no subject
no subject
no subject
Because I am a scrupulously, scrupulously fair person I will concede that however many well-reasoned or just plain vituperative arguments I come up with (I've got armfuls) it is essentially boils down to a question of whether when they throw you a slow smile you go all warm and gooey or whether you snort at the scrofulous little fuck for imagining he is in any way attractive enough to make up for being a berk.
I have to say that for all my going gooey over Malfoys and Toreth in RL I wouldn't touch them or anyone like them with a 10 foot pole and marigolds. I am allergic to men who know they are attractive and always have been and I don't like playing games I can't win.
no subject
But yes - it does more or less boil down to whether or not you get at wet-on for these characters or not, because there really isn't any way around the fact that they're bastards. Oh, I can just imagine how this conversation will go after a couple of bottles of wine! :D
I have to say that a very particular brand of men who know they're attractive make me go week at the knees. But men who fancy themselves the best thing since sliced bread are SUCH a turn-off, I agree! IRL, that is. :)
no subject
I can't wait to sit about and squee about everything face to face :D
no subject
no subject
Sounds like a plan, though I will need to try and not be hungover to the point of incivility on Saturday :D
no subject