Hey, Americans ...

[blamebrampton]

Do you ever use forms of cliché other than plain old cliché? Such as clichéd or clichés? I see it used in a manner that I would consider wrong so often that I am wondering if it is one of those wacky idioms that English develops up all around the world. Or it could just be young people today with their emo music and Twittering ...

Comments

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

I've always assumed it was an error brought on by poor diction. Unlike gotten which is just an error. Sniffs. I suggest the use of trite, which avoids the problem.

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

Hee! According to Merriam-Webster, none are considered errors. Gotten is listed as a past-participle of get, and both clichés and clichéd are forms of cliché.

Oxford states the same, though they point out that gotten is North American, and is often regarded as non-standard.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

The question is whether or not it is acceptable to use the form 'cliché' in cases where one would expect the forms 'clichéd' or 'clichés'. What does M-W say about that?

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

Sorry ... I thought the question was whether clichéd and clichés were correct, not the other way around.

M-W and Oxford list cliché as a noun, which might suggest that no, it shouldn't be used that way, but M-W also mentions it as an adjective. *shrugs*

Oxford cliché
M-W cliché
M-W clichéd

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

So that would indicate that it is an American/British distinction then. If M-W (which is American) lists the form cliché as both adjective and noun, but OED only lists it as a noun, that's the difference blamebrampton was asking about.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

What rosathome says ;-) But I adore your use of footnotes!

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

I don't accept webster as authoritative as it is foreign. And the oxford citation of gotten as non-standard means wrong. Wrong or geordie and i'm not a geordie. And i think brammers was refering to the deplorable habit of not putting the d on the adjectival form not suggesting cliched was wrong. On the contrary.

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

As Canadians, we tend to side with the British on spelling/grammar most times, but I'd never heard 'gotten' as being wrong before the HP fandom. Half my family is Scottish, and between my uncle and my father, I would have expected them to point it out to me while I was growing up, had they thought it was wrong. Both were always particular about language. Though I suppose it's possible they never heard me use it.

I think of 'gotten' as similar to 'given'. It's always been a part of my vocabulary, and it never struck me as incorrect in its form.

Ah, fandom. A great place to learn about language variances. :)

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know what the OED says. But 'gotten' is just a crap word, isn't it?!!!!

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

TBH, 'gotten' never bothered me. Still doesn't. It's as common as any other word here (Canada), and I never heard an objection to it before HP fandom. I think of 'gotten' as similar to 'given'.

In Canada, we often 'side' with the British on spelling & grammar, but this wasn't something I'd ever heard before. *shrugs* I do, however, edit it out in any Brit stories.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

While gotten is ugly, it at least makes sense as it is a straight-up Old English construction (a fact I just checked in my OE text, which fell on my head as I tried to scoop it from the shelf: I suffer for my accuracy!) to use the -en suffix.

Losing the established s and d endings with cliche is much less easily understood, unless it is down to diction. Having spent a few minutes trying it out with bad fake American accents, I think you may well have nailed the reason.

Trite is subtly different, though in many cases superior for the specific meaning the writer is apparently aiming at.

AND my head hurts.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

And if i were to write beowulf 2 the monster's mother strikes back i might deploy it. Absent that...

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Please do! Grendel's mother was far scarier.

I mind mistakes with logical reasons behind them far less than ones that stem from derangement.