Hey, Americans ...

[blamebrampton]

Do you ever use forms of cliché other than plain old cliché? Such as clichéd or clichés? I see it used in a manner that I would consider wrong so often that I am wondering if it is one of those wacky idioms that English develops up all around the world. Or it could just be young people today with their emo music and Twittering ...

Comments

[azurelunatic]

It's young people. I often whack their knees with my cane as I pass.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh, BLESS YOU!

[cinnatart.livejournal.com]

I do not use inappropriate forms myself, however I have seen it in abundance. I'm convinced it's either Americanism or, like you said, the youth of the day.

*scratches head and wonders when she stopped considering herself part of that youth* EEP

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

You are still young! You are simply not Yoof, because you are sane.

[nolagal.livejournal.com]

Pretty sure it's us wacky Americans with a complete disregard for the English language.

How have you seen it used incorrectly?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

It's seeming as though ditching the d at least is quite acceptable in US English, hence the oft-seen 'That is SO cliché!'

I shall be more gentle in my beta-ing in future!

[adevyish.livejournal.com]

Canadian of the younger generation, and "clichéd" and "clichés" both sound right to me. I suppose I'll have to punish myself now by retaking French.

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm a Canadian of a slightly older generation and both sound right to me too.

However, I shall not be retaking French. :P

[old-enough.livejournal.com]

I'm almost 60 and spent the first 40 years in the US and the next 20 in various places in Europe. To my ear it is perfectly OK to say clichéd and clichés, but I have developed a severe allergy to the US "gotten".

That said, there appear to be lots and lots of what I learned as irregular past tense verb forms that are changing to be more regular in their conjugations. I am willing to be flexible on that issue, but have threatened to make several people "gender neutral" if I ever hear them say "drugged" instead of "dragged" again. :)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Yes, d and s endings would be my natural choice. And gotten is ugly, but I can live with its use given that it follows a straightforward construction that has its roots in Old English. But I do think that it should be considered idiosyncratic usage, as should acclimated. Alas, both are so widespread they are considered US standard.

I strongly agree with you that there are changes afoot in the language, but do feel that some should be stomped on. Drugged should be first set fire to, then the ashes stomped on ;-)

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

I've always assumed it was an error brought on by poor diction. Unlike gotten which is just an error. Sniffs. I suggest the use of trite, which avoids the problem.

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

Hee! According to Merriam-Webster, none are considered errors. Gotten is listed as a past-participle of get, and both clichés and clichéd are forms of cliché.

Oxford states the same, though they point out that gotten is North American, and is often regarded as non-standard.

[glorafin.livejournal.com]

Isn't "clichés" an acceptable plural for "cliché"? If not, it should. :)

As for clichéd, I find the word quite ugly, with that unpronouncable 'éd' at the end. Actuall, I'm not quite sure why one could not use 'cliché' as an adjective. I would have thought that a "cliché story" would be understandable by all, as is "love story" or "horror story". But then again, that possibility of using substantives as adjectives is on of the most puzzling features of the English language, at least for French native speakers.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Yes, both s and d endings are quite right and are standardised in non-American English usage. American usage seems to allow for the d at least to be left off. The pronunciations in Britglish, AusEnglish and KiwiEnglish all allow for the d quite easily, more so that US English according to my bad fake Yankee accent test.

And from the English English perspective, we do standardise many of the words we appropriate, we like to make them feel at home in the language ;-)

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

I've always said clichéd or clichés. Is it a technically incorrect usage? And if so, why?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

No, quite right. But of course the new problem of why a construction I think means one thing means the opposite to Americans has popped up ;-)

[sesheta-66.livejournal.com]

Both sound correct to me, and I may have used either or both myself over the years. I've certainly heard (and seen) them both used frequently, and would never have considered either one of them to be wrong. *shrugs*

It's not limited to the young today, though I'll happily accept the young label if you're offering. ;D Perhaps it's just a North American thing, because it's common in Canada too.

Both forms are listed in the Merriam Webster online dictionary also.

I also checked Oxford, which lists clichéd as the adjective. Since it lists cliché as a noun, it makes sense that clichés would be the plural, no?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the d and s endings are what I would automatically use, yet American writers very often discard the d, and quite often the s, too.

And now I have to work out a rule for why the construction of that paragraph can be read with the reverse meaning in the US. My brain is going to melt one day ...

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

Oh, that irritates me beyond all reason too. I do see it as part of a wider trend to abandon the past participle for some unaccountable reason. People regularly seem to write things like 'I use to do that...' And particularly in the adjectival form, the -ed ending seems increasingly optional. Poor diction must, I think, have quite a lot to do with this.

But, to be fair with respect to your actual example, I suppose one could make a case for using cliché in its French form, rather than as an Anglicization, in which case you would still have clichés but not clichéd.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

And now, having read the comments, it seems to me that the matter is so far gone that quite a lot of people have been able to interpret your question in completely the opposite way from what I assumed you meant.

My understanding is that (British) English inflects the word cliché to give the adjectival form clichéd and the plural form clichés. This is what I would view as standard. I assumed your question was directed to those (mainly Americans) who use only the form cliché in all situations, even when it is adjectival or plural. But several people seem to have assumed you were asking whether clichéd and clichés were acceptable forms at all.

[suttonwriter.livejournal.com]

Both have been common usage most of my life. And how a word is used determines whether or not it's correct, not what language mavens and English teachers think (believe me, I've tried to stamp out utilize and finally had to give up).

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Oh, I HATE utlise/ze. It is such an ugly word. I always mark it up and ask the writer if they really want to construct a tone that reads as dull Public Service?

And yes, I have been merrily marking up the lack of the d and s as error when beta-ing, but then had the sudden realisation that perhaps it was kosher to use cliché for all three forms after all. And I do not like to stamp on words solely because they are Americanisms, as I would miss kosher, persnickety, and several others far too much. Though aluminum and acclimated can sod off ;-)

[bryoneybrynn.livejournal.com]

I use cliched. Also, I use the accent, I'm just too lazy to figure out how to do it on my keyboard (Word always supplies it for me). That said, I've only ever used it in conversation - I've never used in a paper or something.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

On a Mac, you can do it by typing option + E, then E. Not sure about PCs because I am too much of a wanker to have ever owned one ;-).

Clichéd is quite right, and we have uncovered another area where English construction fails to cross the Atlantic easily.

[raitala.livejournal.com]

Just to add to your confusion, I was also not sure whether you were telling me that clichéd and clichés were the constructions you actually had a problem with or not - so it isn't just North Americans who could misread those sentences. Just goes to show that keyboard-English has a WHOLE other set of communication difficulties :)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I was trying to not impose on them the idea that to leave off the s and d was wrong (regardless of my personal beliefs), while still given the other forms as examples. Perhaps a paragraph break would have helped!

[faynia.livejournal.com]

I read your post twice trying to decide if the issue was clichéd vs clichés (neither of which my Firefox spell check appreciates) or with the way we young people tend to bandy it about for everything.

I've decided that the usage works for anything that's at least two months old. Owning an Ipod? Tch, so cliché. XD

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

That was in fact what twigged me to the fact that Americans might find the lack of d and s endings perfectly acceptable, when my Firefox spellcheck told me they were wrong. I had the sudden realisation that it could be another They Do Things Differently There moment.

And I adore my iPod, even though it is responsible for me now owning all three volumes of Queen's Greatest Hits ;-)

[silvershinigami.livejournal.com]

I saw this post and got horribly confused as to whether I was wrong for using clichéd and clichés. ;_; You made me run for a dictionary!

I think it's one of those things where it's kind of tricky to hear the difference in speech, so if people don't read enough to stumble across the correct usage, then they just assume it's cliché and only cliché.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I think you are right about people using it as they hear it. I recently read petty bourgeoisie used (not as a pun or idiomatic usage) by someone who had clearly heard the term but never seen it written.

[empress-jae.livejournal.com]

it might have to do with dialect in some cases, and also folks just never having heard the word properly which in turn means they have never been corrected. man, what community was i perusing the other day?...anyway, while trying to make her point, a commenter threw in "intensive purpose" into her rambling. after a couple of WAT? responses from the masses, i finally realized she was trying to say "to all intents and purpose" and decided to gently correct her. in a hissy fit, she said i was wrong, and then an argument broke out after others told her that SHE was in the wrong. i just sat back and palmfaced. youth.

regardless, i like your twittering theory, or as my Finnish boss calls it "twooting"

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

HA! Oh dear, yes. Poor lamb, if she hadn't argued, it would have been one of those perfectly understandable mistakes, like the non-punning use of petty bourgeoisie.

And Twooting is BRILLIANT!

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Both d and s endings are fine and standard, but they seem to be disappearing in US English. I am considering mounting a rescue effort ;-)

[sporkmetender.livejournal.com]

I must confess to using "gotten" on a fairly regular basis (it's part of an American upbringing, I suppose), but I strenuously object to using "cliché" in place of "clichéd" and "clichés." I have a friend who does it a lot, and it bugs me to death. So I guess I'm some sort of weird hybrid formation :)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I can accept gotten from Americans even though it's ugly, because it comes from a rational formation. Acclimate is just wacky, though. And hurrah for proper endings!

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised you even have to ask the question, because it's not like we don't know the answer.

:D

And zombies.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I received a text this evening from a friend to let me know she had found some very fine zombie horses in the artworks of the castle she is visiting. I immediately thought of you.

As it turns out, there are many Americans who still believe in finishing words to mark different usage, this heartens me!

[mabonwitch.livejournal.com]

I am both young and American, but perhaps am no longer "youth" because emo music, Twitter, and incorrect use of the word "cliche" bother me...

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

You are still part of the youth, just not the annoying part ;-)

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Not American but when I IM with Kes (who is American) and say something like "that's just so cliché" she always corrects me that it's clichéd. *shrugs*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

That's because Kes is a Great Human Being. And you're allowed to say the odd thing wackily ;-)

[mific.livejournal.com]

Dangerous to get us going on a grammar thread, as evidenced above!
Clichés and clichéd for me.
The other thing I frequently have to grit my teeth and bear is disinterested used to mean uninterested.
But again, I found a grammar-nerds site which in the end concluded that that battle was lost, in the New World anyway. Which is actually a supermarket chain here.
I'm a hold-out though - I refuse to use disinterested for not interested - and it's not just because my false teeth make the sibilants harder to say these days. ;)

[arcanetrivia]

"Clichés" is a valid plural noun to me (for example, a list of overused proverbs could be some clichés) and I have been known to use "clichéd" as a descriptor. This is incorrect? I had no idea. It strikes me as another example of our passion for nouning and verbing, TBH.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Both are quite correct! What sounds like an attempt to be unbiased while still providing examples in my English apparently means exactly the opposite to others! And hurrah for upholding different forms when using words in novel ways!