Parla Inglese?

[blamebrampton]

frantic_mice  pushed me in the direction of fanficrants  (which I can see lasting another week on my watch list, if that). One of the more interesting of the many rants was from someone who, in essence, said 'Look, we live in a globalised age, is it really the case that reading American spellings in a fic set in the UK and vice-versa is worth making that much of a fuss about?'

And I have to agree. I can easily overlook gotten and alright if  no one over the age of 20 cries and if people only talk about their deepest feelings when they are in extremis. But for some, including a long list of commenters, there are certain Americanisms that are like a dictionary to the 43rd President of the USA and have them running at first sight.

I can somewhat sympathise, because I can find it very hard to read when characters start acting American, talking at great length about their emotions and so on. While I adore my American friends, my closest ones know that they will receive one brief hug on meeting and departure, and I will probably never tell them any of my deepest feelings. Which is not because I don't love them, but because deepest feelings are only for personal perusal so that no innocent souls will become aware of the full extent of my inner lunacy.

But for spelling and so on ... well, I regularly read books and magazines published in America and sometimes set in the UK or elsewhere in the English speaking world, and I cope with them. In fact, the YA novel I just finished changed spellings depending on whether scenes were set in New York or Sydney and it read as very very odd indeed (though it's a good novel). Dealing with such spelling anomalies is commonplace: most of you do the same.

I do like a good Britpick for things like truck/lorry, stall/cubicle, Christmas eggnog/three bottles of decent whisky and hiding in the stables, and were I writing fic set in the US, I would make certain that my characters said Dude and asked for the check. However, my authorial voice would still sound like me, which I believe is appropriate. Wodehouse and Conan Doyle both have long sections of novels (Psmith, Journalist and The Valley of Fear respectively) set in the US where they follow this rule, and these were great successes on both sides of the Atlantic.

All of which is my lengthy way of saying, I can cope perfectly well if you're an American and you write alright, color and aluminum. But if you could hold off on having the lads say 'I love you so much, sweetie, that sometimes I just want to cry'*, I would take it as a personal favour.
 

Finally, HAPPY BIRTHDAY suonguyen !


*If you have actually written a fic that contains this line, obviously it worked well in the incredibly clever context you created for it.

Comments

[catsintheattic.livejournal.com]

This post made me smile because it makes sense in such a relaxed sort of way.

:-)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Cheers dears! Sounds like a good motto for life ;-)

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

Snerk

Whereas gotten irritates me blind.

I don't like the emoting either, but gotten spoken by Lucius...Meeps

I know that my co writer occasionally is disappointed with me for not having my characters emote enough, and I keep splaining they're English, as am I, and I can't. Bless her, she has a lot to put up with.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I'd say I have no connection with it, but apparently my brain associates you with bishops, and in the same way I will invariably say fuck around one of the latter, I will pop up with my only uses of the word around you ;-)

Lucius would never use the word even to tell someone they have been ... Perhaps if bracketed by ill and gains, but even then with a very arch tone.

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

I love you so much, sweetie, that sometimes I just want to cry'

LOL, that sounds like Draco in my earliest fics. In fact, when Harry proposes to him, they cry and hold each other. Ooh, I think I edited that out some time later. :D

I'm not going to link you to the fic I just read in which the Trio work at Home Depot.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

SNORT! I can just see that: 'I'd like some wood screws, thanks.'
'Sure, what are they for?'
'My wardrobe, the side is coming off.'
'Sounds as though you might have a Boggart in there. Would you like someone to come round and remove it?'

Do normal people cry when they are proposed to? I have ever made excuses and left ... in one case the country.

[vaysh11.livejournal.com]

Christmas eggnog/three bottles of decent whisky and hiding in the stables
Another good reason why the British life-style will eventually, in the bigger scheme of things, win out over globalised Americanism. ;-)

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Quite right! Bugger false cheer and enforced goodwill to all; I'll take drunkenness and large piles of clean hay to fall on any day! XXX

[thisgirl-is.livejournal.com]

I find it depends quite a lot on the specific example. (It always does, with me. It's like I'm allergic to absolutism.)

'Color' is fine. I can deal with that. However, 'Mom' makes me twitch violently, which tends to ruin my enjoyment of a story. I think that's the only actual Americanism that I can't recover from. I can forgive the rest as long as, as you say, they are behaving in a suitably British manner.

I may possibly have written a post about incorrect usages that bug me horribly, but it's locked down on account of probably being appallingly passive-aggressive. But I add things to it from time to time, and it makes me feel better, so I try not feel like too much of a pedant.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Good point, Mom is one of those words that, to me, isn't on the color/colour spectrum, it's on the aubergine/eggplant spectrum. Because it's not just a spelling difference, it's a different pronunciation entirely, and is culturally significant enough to make it worth considering as a watchword.

Go ranting!

[calanthe-fics.livejournal.com]

If I wrote SPN fanfic I'd use Americanisms and spell words the American way. It's not exactly hard to make the effort is it?

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Yes, but you're you ;-P

Someone who is skilled and a good editor can do that, but given the average writer, would you prefer something that is scrupulous in its spellings and sloppy in its word choices and attitudes to the reverse?

Since most people can only manage one set of culture shifts perfectly, I choose to be relaxed on spelling, it hurts less. Besides, I can't remember how to spell cooled these days, so who am I to judge? I just keep putting another l in and out and stick with whatever is there when I grow bored ;-)

[absynthedrinker.livejournal.com]

LOL! I think this will say it best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XPHL4Q86t4

Peace,
Bubba

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

So much kinder than Mad Dogs and Englishmen ...

[potteresque_ire]

I was a faithful watcher of fanficrants in the earlier days of fandom. Generally I'm as uncomfortable with the ranting as with the offense (it's the attitude), but it does tell me a lot about what to look out for - in fandom etiqutte more than in writing :).

Ah. Britpick. The spelling rarely bothers at all (I learned English as British English and then switched over to American), but I smile when I encounter vocabularies that are distinctly British (like lorry , lifts). If the author uses truck and elevator, however, I would have not noticed them. The slangs though ... that's what can raise flags in my head. If they're too casual American (such as Dude), I would go O_o, but at the same time, if they're too British, I, well, I'd probably have trouble understanding them, authentic as they are ...

So, does it mean I should become very familiar about the UK culture? As a reader and someone who casually calls on her 12 typing monkeys? To an extent, yes, but since I am a very casual fandomer, have no professional writing / editing responsibilities and have things much more immediate on my to-learn list, chances are I will never go deep enough to hide the American in me (I would have missed the eggnog vs whiskey).

When it comes to writing, Britpick also ranks relatively low on the list of my concerns *ducks sheepishly from calanthe_fics* – there are many areas in the art of storytelling that I must struggle with and I see getting through those as much more important; by the time I'm done with those, chances are I'm too tired of the fic to have the drive to request extensive Britpicking.

I am totally guilty of make the men cry - though it usually calls for rather dire circumstances :). As for the "I love you" and sharing the deepest feeling part - I don't think I have committed them in a fic yet, not because I know for sure that's how the Brits behave but because my own culture makes it difficult for me to find a right place to put them on paper - stereotypically speaking, Chinese are a stoic bunch :D.

[frantic-mice.livejournal.com]

I don't read all of it. Or. Almost any of it. Not that I have to defend myself for having it in my Flist. BUT! Yeah. Every once in a while?

A RLY cool rant. Like the one that spoke about Bathroom Behavior for men and women (and how different it is) written by a trans who had experience in both Girl-loos and Boy-loos.

[angela-snape.livejournal.com]

Being Canadian, I have a weird hybrid perspective on it - I have the u's in words like colour, but am bombarded with American culture in movies and television. When I beta for Americans, I do tend to change spellings to UK versions (mostly because I use the UK dictionary on my word processor because there isn't a Canadian one) and for the most part, they seem to be okay with it.

When I write anything of length, I do get a Brit-picking so my 'vacations' can get turned into 'holidays', and the like.

I agree with you that it is good to have British characters acting, well, British, and that to have spellings change based on location in the same book would likely throw me off, too.

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

So _that's_ why it's called hd_holidays! =O

X-D

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

ah the good ol' Brit vs. Yank debate

For the most part I adopt what JKR did... That is to say I use the Brit words where they fit (like biscuits and lift) but use the American spellings like visualize and color. I don't think it's right or wrong considering we Americans (for the most part) read the American canon. I have a few times, for fun? not sure, used Brit spellings but it can get rather taxing on me and my spell check;) and a few are bound to slip through, so then I'd rather just be consistent. If people want to use them "great" if not, "I don't care". I don't particularly like American slang or behavior and usually that jolts me out of a story if it becomes prominent characterization. It also usually coincides with more immature writing that I wouldn't like to read anyway, so it's usually moot.

[rickey-a.livejournal.com]

and PS you couldn't pay me to look at ficrants or fandomwank or... any of that tripe

[frantic-mice.livejournal.com]

I suck and I'm in the minority and peeps will liekly tell me to STFU PLSkthx.

BUT!!! I don't like the FIXATION OF IRRITATION ON AMERICANISMS.

I'm totes prejudiced and biased because Anna Banana doesn't write much for that precise reason. It's not that she couldn't write and then have it Britpicked, but she has that inner voice that tells her, "You're American and it will slip out like a stretched bra-strap and FAUX BLOODY PAS!!" Cause there's sooooooooooooooooooooooo much indignation about hao American authors don't add those SUPAH NECESSARAY ESSENTIAL extra vowels. Because if you Brit-pick it means you care. -_-

IMO it's something rly silly and totes pedantic-o, but then agains I use Le English Language liek other peeps use their toilet plungers.

It makes me go all confusey and I can hear the words "What a silly bitch" just echoing in my head whenever someone goes CHE GUEVARA!!!! over Americano spellage. Which is weirdness because when somfin liek that echoes in my head it's usually about me. But yeah. I just always think that when peeps get rly mad about that stuff it's because they had like nine pet-peeves on their Shit List and wanted to add an arbitrary 10th. Minor bothery is fineness and proportional, cause we can't help what bothers us but we can try to help how we make people feel about what bothers us. I'm a hypocrite THOU cause I think anybody who has made my Anners sad about this and is bothered by what I'm saying can go walk in a lake.

AGAIN! I'm totes Biased. BUT. Yeah.

Point is. My deepest darkest inner feelings say that bitches should step off before I tell them to shove their stoic reserve and their extra vowels.

OverProtective Micie is overprotective. :DDDDDDDDDDD

[romaine24.livejournal.com]

I think we can all agree that American slang does not belong in an HP fic, unless it's totally AU, dude.

But as for the rest of it, for me it came in stages. Learning to write was more important than Britpicking. I did start using the extra vowels pretty early on and using Mum for Mom. You can only pay attention to so many things before you become frozen when writing.

The best thing to do is turn on British English as the default in Word.

I don't get offended if a British reader/author tells me that they use a different word. I find it actually somewhat helpful and interesting. Since most slash stories will have a bedroom scene, I try and use 'dressing gown', which still makes me giggle, and bedside table instead of nightstand. The latter, though, really how was I to know besides looking up every damn object in a British dictionary.

Now for eggnog, this is the first I've heard of it. And I've written plenty of Christmas scenes. It is an English creation. So did they stop drinking it at some point? I'm very confused. http://whatscookingamerica.net/Eggnog.htm

The wonderful mods at hd_inspired did some britpicking of my stories when they received it and I found it fun to learn from them. I will be having my story for 10k britpicked, it will be my first time.

As for Anna, Micie, I would say for starters turn on teh British dictionary and just write. There will always be folks who don't like something about any story. For some it might be Americanisms, but for most it will be content. If I worried about what readers thought then I certainly wouldn't write hd compliant stories with receding hairlines, creature fics, mpreg, gender-bending, shibari, snowballing, character death, cross-gen, etc...

[beatnikspinster.livejournal.com]

As an emotionally repressed Earthling, I also cringe at explicit emoting for the fact of it, not the cultural incongruity. I understand not wanting to hear long emotional exchanges.

Aside from that, spelling is easier than cultural issues. I do my best with my spellings and grammar. My beta britpicks the spellings and terms. I do the best I can at moving the dialog into the proper zone. Sometimes it works better than others. But, and this is the kicker, I know the effort's pointless.

The cultural part will never be convincing. I'm not British. Never been to Britain. Never even been an Anglophile. And I've always said that I speak American, not English. I translate the best I can. But I can colour and lorry and MI5 my comic until the cows come home, and it will always fail if the standard for success is "must seem created by British person". I mean...I make comics. No medium is more inherently American than a freakin' comic. I have my Brit-picking done, research costumes and environmental visuals, and try to make the story work. That's all I can do, and it won't be enough. I already know that.

So, what to do? I get that HP is a British product, and this is a expressed cultural ownership bonding thing. I guess ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. Maybe I should add "Artist/Author is American" to my warnings in non-American-origin fandoms. Anyone sensitive to having their cultural products reinterpreted by Americans would have some warning.

[frantic-mice.livejournal.com]

Anyone sensitive to having their cultural products reinterpreted by Americans would have some warning.


I LOLed. <3 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[thenotoriousso4.livejournal.com]

Okay, I just typed out a huge comment and deleted it because it was starting to not make any sense.

But the gist of it was that I totally understand real British people not wanting to read fics where British characters are acting overly American (not to mention missing the basics of British speaking. That would make even me cringe), but I think it's better to try and get the basics right and have them acting like at least real human beings and not risk turning them into caricatures of British people.

Because just like you I could understand a British person using "colour" and "theatre" in a fic about Americans, but I don't think I could stand if they spent the whole time saying "Dude" and eating pizza and saying "I love you so much I could cry", because we're really not all like that.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

Making sense is entirely optional on this journal! Goodness knows I only manage it about 65% of the time ...

I quite agree with your point that:
I think it's better to try and get the basics right and have them acting like at least real human beings and not risk turning them into caricatures of British people.

And I must say that I was exaggerating for comedic effect. Though there are some fic writers out there who seem to have trained on soap operas. I would like to see them sent off to read Twain and watch The West Wing.

[kayleigh-jane.livejournal.com]

I'm not really bothered by the spelling, as English isn't my first language and I rarely even notice it. Unless it is misspelled badly and the grammar is awful of course, but that I usually notice within the first three sentences. Which leads to not reading the fic, and thus missing the weepy emo boys, thank goodness.

What does annoy me is the trousers/pants thing. For me, as for most Brits, pants are your underthings and trousers go over that. So when someone wipes his hand on his pants (minds out of the gutter!) this makes me go 'huh?'. It becomes glaringly obvious in Torchwood fic, where one character is an 'American' and the others are Welsh. Only the really good authors can make the distinction between them.

Anyway, I agree with you! It just took me a while to say.

like a dictionary to the 43rd President of the USA

This made me laugh out loud. ♥

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

HEE! I always have to re-read those scenes to check if there was some undressing I missed. Though, shamefully, since I started working occasionally on fashion mags, even I have been known to say pants every now and then, or, far far worse, pant! But usually only in a sentence such as 'That's a lovely bias-cut polished cotton pant.' After which I hit myself soundly.

Glad I gave you a giggle ;-) Your icon did the same for me!

[uminohikari.livejournal.com]

Aluminum? What do you call it?

[jadzialove.livejournal.com]

I believe that would be: aluminium

Pronounced: al - u - mih - nee - um

Though I'm no expert, being that I'm not a Brit.

hugs

[lilian-cho.livejournal.com]

my closest ones know that they will receive one brief hug on meeting and departure

Ahahahah me too X-D
One semi-lingering hug on meeting and departure, in my case.
This includes any family member I haven't seen in years and live continents away =P

And the "Get a grip of yourself, we're British!" scenario provides much amusement for me, idk.
e.g. Peter getting sentimental with Edmund before battle and Edmund being all OMGStopItNowPls D:

X-D

Re: hugs

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

You mentioned something that made me think of Skandar Keynes! Argh! He is the reason I am going straight to hell, do not pass go! He is so astonishingly pretty and so terribly, terribly young! ARGH! I had sensible things to say but now I have to go and have a cold drink before I come over entirely Germaine Greer!

[jadzialove.livejournal.com]

While I heartily agree with you about the crying/flowery expressions of love fics, I have to wonder about it being strictly an American affliction. I know that, by and large, Americans tend to be rather expressive, but I've never read anything that makes me believe that sort of story is solely a product of the US.

'Cos seriously?

That sort of fic makes me gag (it is, in fact, listed prominently on my 'squicks' list for fests). And I'm not so stupid that I'd list names here, but I know there are Brit authors out there who've come up with stuff like that (one in particular comes to mind that I normally avoid whenever possible). To be fair, there are quite a few ESL authors out there that lean that way too. Perhaps it seems so completely American because there are so many of us churning out fics, making the potential larger?

As for hugging friends---has it never occurred to you that you might be particularly huggable? Because I've lived in the US for 41 years and the huggy-touchy people in my life have been very few and far between. Have no fear, when we meet, you will not be molested unduly. *winks*

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

You're right that it's not strictly American. I think it's mostly young writers, though young American writers seem to have it worse, due to having grown up with dreadful TV for the most part. This is a travesty of the way Things Should Be, because time was that the US had all the best TV. In the last 10 years, only niche shows seem to have great writing, including The West Wing and Battlestar Galactica. While dross that looks and sounds like snappier versions of soap operas is everywhere.

That said, there are middle-aged British writers who do it, too. However, I choose to believe they are also streaming The Bold and The Beautiful ;-)

One thing that does read American to me is when characters leap into personal revelation, telling each other their deepest darkest secrets and explaining their motivations because of things that have happened to them. It also reads as My Therapist Says Writing Is Good For me.

I suspect that H/D land may be scarier than mostly Snarry land, which is the single-malt drinking, Economist reading, grown-up section of fandom ;-)

I want more non-hugging Americans like you! Most of them want to hug me and squeeze me and call me George!

[jamie2109.livejournal.com]

I've ranted about British/American spellings before and even slashed at the non-use of the extra vowels or the use of 'ize' words instead of 'ise' when beta'ing a fic. As time goes on however, I find that those things don't annoy me so much as 'mom'. It makes my stomach clench (only in HP. In other fic it's probably appropriate though unless I am writing fic in an American fandom or using American characters, I'd never use it).

My biggest problem is my beta pointing out Australianisms in my work. D'oh. Oh, sorry that should read 'Crikey'. lol. Or to be British, 'Bollocks'. In my efforts to try and make the dialogue flow naturally, I sometimes use figures of speech that are more Australian than British. Like "Too bloody right." I think it's made me see that at times we just don't realise that some sayings are culturally specific, no matter how much we try. I grew up with British spelling, in country that has its roots in Great Britain, but I am not British and therefore will never ever sound completely British.

And then again, I had two Brits pick my work on one fic and one said a phrase I'd used was not British and the other said it's used all the time in England, so you get that infusion of words and terms that cross the ocean and become ingrained in everyday modern usage anyway.

So, I like the more mellow approach I'm learning, and reckon that bloody bonza writing beats you beaut Pommy spelling any day. *g*

[fourth_rose]

Since English isn't my first language, I go by the rule that if a HP fic seems too American to me, it is indeed too American. US spelling doesn't bother me, but if British characters "sound" American even to my foreign ears, I'll start looking for the back button.

SO much word on the emotions thing! (It's not just a fanfic matter for me - I have been scarred for life by dubbed US soaps where family members keep telling each other in everyday conversation how much they love each other. The mere thought of a member of my family doing that in my presence makes me want to die from sheer embarrassment.) Like you said, the confession of feelings is for extreme situations only, and IMO these kinds of situations already exclude flowery declarations ;)

[shu-shu-sleeps.livejournal.com]

I like my Brits to be Brits and Americans to be themselves as well... spelling - I can cope (just) as long as it isn't anything heinous like a Brit calling their mother "Mom"..... but you are correct - its how they act and speak that is the more important thing to have right.
The thing I really like about the British is the lack of drama - give me a stiff British upper lip in a crisis anyday! And what's with the hugging stuff - you know I honestly don't recall seeiggn you hug many people.... I certainly don't (and thank buddha my american friends all seem to be able to cope with that) - and I'm not even British! - Just colonial :)

[daybreaq.livejournal.com]

Spellpick has long been a peeve of mine. I think it's ridiculous. It first came up for me when I was participating in a fandom for a US TV show. People would pick on non-US english speakers for not using US spellings. So it's not just a pick on the Americans phenomena. Spelling shouldn't matter in most cases. An example of an exception would be Hermione in a Spelling Bee saying "C*O*L*O*R" instead of "C*O*L*O*U*R." Hermione, as a British character, should spell things the way a British person would. But if the person writing about her is from the US, there's no need for him to spell things like his character would just because he is writing about her. He shouldn't put Americanisms in a British character's mouth; but he doesn't have to pretend he's British just because he's writing about British characters. Does that make any sense?

Now I'm not certain about extending it to regional expressions in narration. To me though, while Mrs. Weasley should say, "Leave the car in the car park, Arthur," I'm not sure it's wrong to have it in the narration "Mr Weasley left his flying car in the station's parking lot."

The YA novel you mention seems to carry Spellpick to absurdity. What if the setting moved to Germany? Would the writer have to start writing in German? (Though it might be interesting to actually write a novel in multiple languages someday ... though the audience able to read it as intended would be a bit diminished.)

[complications-g.livejournal.com]

I LOVE YOU, because that is exactly it. ;)

Along the emotional thing too. I actually start cringing when characters start spouting such declarations, and public scenes make me very embarrassed.

[azurelunatic]

I'm an American. I cringe at 'alright'. Why? BECAUSE IT'S SODDING INCORRECT. Just because two generations of illiterate morons have started spelling it that way does not make it RIGHT.

[arcanetrivia]

Werd. It just looks wrong. But after having been chewed out on this once (with a dictionary cite, no less) when trying to beta someone's fic, I decided to pick my battles thereafter.

[arcanetrivia]

So... never mention emotions. Okay. Well that's shafted just about everything I've written.

Where do you get your interpersonal drama, then?

[lisbet.livejournal.com]

'I love you so much, sweetie, that sometimes I just want to cry'

Ick! No one says that in real life, I hope, no matter where they live.